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  1. #856
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    After having finally read it (with the JSA variant cover) let's break this down a bit: First off, I think we can rule out the original Earth 2 being the home of the GA Superman since apparently mainstream Earth HAD the REAL GA Superman. Second of all, it would have made a lot more sense to have the SA Superman come to Earth in 1956 instead of debut in 1956 since COIE was in 1985 and mathematically he would be 29, as is the perma-canon at the time. Third of all, I wish they had gone into a little more detail about how the retcons work. They don't. In one panel he's looking at a universe where Superman debuted in 1938, in the next, it's one where he didn't. We don't get an explanation for what changed. All we know is that Jon can see these changes. He hints at things like the anti-Monitor but doesn't explain why these things happen or provide an explanation for all the other changes having nothing to do with the rest of the DCU.

    I can quibble about timelines but real issue is that he keeps getting retconned and we still aren't getting an explanation why. I was hoping for more concrete explanations. My theory is that when all this is said and done, we'll be back to the pre-Flashpoint universe (remember, Johns is writing it and has major say) including SO as his official origin again with nothing left over from New 52. The JSA is back in canon as if they never left and one or both of the Kents will still be alive. SO is a safe bet because most fans either like it or are indifferent at best. Any more retcons would just upset the fanbase even more.
    The way I see it, everytime the history of Earth 0 is changed, a new parallel earth (or several) is spawned that mirrors the erased history.

    So Earth 0 originally had Superman showing up in 1938. Then history changes such that Earth 0 has Superman showing up in 1956. But at the same time, a new parallel earth, that comes to be known as Earth 2, is created which has a version of the 1938 Superman.

    This does mean that logically there are earths out there with versions of the Silver Age Superman, the Byrne Superman, Birthright Superman etc. Which is borne out by Convergence. Which in turn explains exactly what happened in Superman Reborn.

    Basically, in Superman Reborn, the pre-Flashpoint Superman is Superman from an earth that reflects Earth 0 Superman's timeline before Manhattan tampered with it to make him the New 52 Superman. When he merges with the New 52 Superman, it brings Earth 0 Superman's history closer to the pre-Mahattan version. In a way that's what all the continuity changes since Wally West's return has done.

    Incidentially, I suppose Johns has now given an 'official' answer to a long-standing question of when exactly did the Golden Age Superman become the Silver Age Superman. The cut-off date is apparently 1956. Of course, Superman's history probably 'slid forward' once more to account for the Bronze Age Superman - probably to the early 1970's or so.
    .

  2. #857
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Incidentially, I suppose Johns has now given an 'official' answer to a long-standing question of when exactly did the Golden Age Superman become the Silver Age Superman. The cut-off date is apparently 1956. Of course, Superman's history probably 'slid forward' once more to account for the Bronze Age Superman - probably to the early 1970's or so.
    .
    The only problem with that is that continuity has rarely been static. So there were Earth-One elements like Superboy appearing as early as 1945 in print And contradictory stories from before 1956 that didn't match earlier Superman tales. Was the story in Superman #76 supposed to be set before any All-Star Comic where the two heroes met in he Golden Age?

  3. #858
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    The only problem with that is that continuity has rarely been static. So there were Earth-One elements like Superboy appearing as early as 1945 in print And contradictory stories from before 1956 that didn't match earlier Superman tales. Was the story in Superman #76 supposed to be set before any All-Star Comic where the two heroes met in he Golden Age?
    I think the 1956 year is more a tip of the hat to Barry Allen's introduction cementing the idea of a new continuity, and that it fits with how long it would take for the Superboy introduced in 1945 to become the adult Superman.

  4. #859
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I think the 1956 year is more a tip of the hat to Barry Allen's introduction cementing the idea of a new continuity, and that it fits with how long it would take for the Superboy introduced in 1945 to become the adult Superman.
    I agree with why 1956 makes sense. Just that to my mind the Metaverse isn't resetting for the first time in 1940/1956 or staying stable until the Bronze Age. I picture small subtle shifts that Manhattan might not notice like newspaprer archives shifting from showing Superman's debut in the April 19, 1938 Daily Star to the exact same article now being in the April 19, 1938 Daily Planet. Or Clark celebrating his 29th birthday several times between 1956 and 1986 (like in 1960, 1964, 1968 …). Or having the rocket land in 1931, Superman debut in 1956, but the Kents dying again for the first time in Summer 1963 (when Clark is 18 and still Superboy).

  5. #860
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I think the 1956 year is more a tip of the hat to Barry Allen's introduction cementing the idea of a new continuity, and that it fits with how long it would take for the Superboy introduced in 1945 to become the adult Superman.
    Makes sense.

    This is the chronology of the Silver Age Superman, going by Manhattan's observations.

    The rocket crash-lands in Smallville in 1931. Jonathan Kent dies in 1949. And Clark makes his debut as Superman in 1956 at around the age of 25.

    If you slot Superboy's debut in 1945 in there, it would mean Clark became Superboy at the age of 14. Which is a bit later than we've come to expect but still kinda works.

    And if you take this forward, then Superman becomes a founding member of the Justice League in 1960, about four years into his career.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    I agree with why 1956 makes sense. Just that to my mind the Metaverse isn't resetting for the first time in 1940/1956 or staying stable until the Bronze Age. I picture small subtle shifts that Manhattan might not notice like newspaprer archives shifting from showing Superman's debut in the April 19, 1938 Daily Star to the exact same article now being in the April 19, 1938 Daily Planet. Or Clark celebrating his 29th birthday several times between 1956 and 1986 (like in 1960, 1964, 1968 …). Or having the rocket land in 1931, Superman debut in 1956, but the Kents dying again for the first time in Summer 1963 (when Clark is 18 and still Superboy).
    Realistically, that's probably what did happen, and Manhattan was remembering only the 'big shifts'. There were probably a bunch of 'micro-shifts' between 1938 and 1956, mirroring how Superman in the real-world was in a constant state of flux.

  6. #861
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    I don’t think Doc M's observations are meant to be an exhaustive overview of every continuity change Superman has undergone, but rather a series of snapshots of the main highlights

  7. #862
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    Dr Manhattan implied everything comes from Superman.
    Alex Luthor implied same thing in Infinite Crisis.
    What do they mean?
    Should we take them literally? If so,how everything?

  8. #863
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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    Dr Manhattan implied everything comes from Superman.
    Alex Luthor implied same thing in Infinite Crisis.
    What do they mean?
    Should we take them literally? If so,how everything?
    He is the first super hero everything else in a way or another is derivative from him

  9. #864
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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    Dr Manhattan implied everything comes from Superman.
    Alex Luthor implied same thing in Infinite Crisis.
    What do they mean?
    Should we take them literally? If so,how everything?
    Its just symbolic. The fact he was the first superhero that really started the genre's popularity and propelled DC Comics to prominence. In practice it won't mean anything because DC doesn't think like that anymore. Not even Johns, he's just paying the same lip service that he did in IC that went nowhere. Batman is their cash cow now, and he is who is tangibly the center of everything in the verse more often than not.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  10. #865
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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    Dr Manhattan implied everything comes from Superman.
    He didn't really imply it. It actually put it into practice. He altered Superman, thus creating the New 52, and because of that the whole metaverse and multiverse changed around that idea. Think of Superman as a thread that can be pulled to create or unravel all of the sweater that is DC continuity. So, yeah, it should be taken literally because it was shown to be literal.
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  11. #866
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    True.
    But,I don't know how this fact is related to actual setting.
    Manhattan said everything change according to changes to Superman.
    What meaning does this have?
    I have read the story that Mxy tellling Superman and Batman are linchpin of multiverse.
    Should i take Manhattan's statement as such way?

    In fact, I wonder whether I should take it as literal or only lip-service to Superman fans.
    Last edited by catman; 06-26-2019 at 02:29 PM.

  12. #867
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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    Should i take Manhattan's statement as such way?
    Yes, but on an even grander scale and without Batman.

    As simply as I can put it: all of the Earth's in the multiverse are altered reflections and variations of Earth-0, our Superman's Earth. Whatever happens to it changes all of them. And whatever changes happen to Superman of Earth-0, change Earth-0 itself, and that in turn changes every single other thing in the multiverse.

    Thus, Superman is the linchpin of the multiverse on the grandest of scales.
    #MakeAlexGreatAgain

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    We shall overcome. The day will come when we are all warmed up."


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  13. #868
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Yes, but on an even grander scale and without Batman.

    As simply as I can put it: all of the Earth's in the multiverse are altered reflections and variations of Earth-0, our Superman's Earth. Whatever happens to it changes all of them. And whatever changes happen to Superman of Earth-0, change Earth-0 itself, and that in turn changes every single other thing in the multiverse.

    Thus, Superman is the linchpin of the multiverse on the grandest of scales.
    Thank you.
    I interpreted Manhattan's statement so though, I didn't know whether i should take it as literal or not(only lip-service to Superman fans).
    But,I see your statement.

  14. #869
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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    Thank you.
    I interpreted Manhattan's statement so though, I didn't know whether i should take it as literal or not(only lip-service to Superman fans).
    But,I see your statement.
    No problem at all. It's very, very literal, and we've seen it in practice quite a few times now. Superman Reborn was the most recent.
    #MakeAlexGreatAgain

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    We shall overcome. The day will come when we are all warmed up."


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