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  1. #1786
    Mighty Member Hellboydce's Avatar
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    Loeb and Sale Batman omnibus, had the Absolutes but sold them and got this, Long Halloween and Dark Victory are both still great but Haunted Knight, was and still is garbage

  2. #1787
    Mighty Member Hellboydce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreakyFraser View Post
    Randomly got a good deal on all 5 Y The Last Man Deluxe HCs......on book 4 and not exactly loving it. I find it all a bit simple and stupid at times......adding it to the sell pile when I'm done.
    I agree, completely over hyped

  3. #1788
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellboydce View Post
    I agree, completely over hyped
    Same. I immediately sold it after finishing.

  4. #1789
    Mighty Member Enigma's Avatar
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    I liked Y: The Last Man, I know a lot of people don't like it though. It is quite a simple comic I think but simple isn't synonymous with bad, and actually sometimes I want to sit down and just breeze through a simple book, other times I want something more intricate

    For example, when I read Dark Knight Returns I was sat there thinking, well this is boring. I think hype doesn't help any book sometimes because if you don't like it, I find it feels even worse because I was expecting it to be good. When I told somebody that I didn't enjoy DKR they said that it was a classic moment in comics and I just 'didn't understand it properly' and I didn't 'appreciate the complexity', and they just sounded like one of those people who 'only reads literature' because they are too intelligent for 'genre books', or in other words they sounded like an idiot. I didn't like the book regardless, but it being hyped up by people around me definitely made it feel worse. I will reread it some time because it was years ago that I read it.
    “We have a saying, my people. Don’t kill if you can wound, don’t wound if you can subdue, don’t subdue if you can pacify, and don’t raise your hand at all until you’ve first extended it.”

  5. #1790
    DC Enthusiast Tony's Avatar
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    Some books really are of the moment. Peter Milligan is someone who writes in the moment. The things going on around us and the way they feel ring so true at the time he publishes a story. I think he's probably the best comic writer in that regard comenting on the world around us. Loved Shade and X-Statics but reading them years later after that moment is long past loses some of that relatable impact. I wonder what people think who never lived through those moments.

    Reminds me of Mark Millar "Hulk hate Freddie Prince Jr." A chuckle at the time for the teen heartthrob reference but an actor who never made a lasting impact. The joke will not hold up for someone who reads it and has no idea what so ever who he is. I know you were just sticking up for Y the Last Man but DKR was an inflection point for comics.

  6. #1791
    Mighty Member Enigma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony View Post
    Some books really are of the moment. Peter Milligan is someone who writes in the moment. The things going on around us and the way they feel ring so true at the time he publishes a story. I think he's probably the best comic writer in that regard comenting on the world around us. Loved Shade and X-Statics but reading them years later after that moment is long past loses some of that relatable impact. I wonder what people think who never lived through those moments.

    Reminds me of Mark Millar "Hulk hate Freddie Prince Jr." A chuckle at the time for the teen heartthrob reference but an actor who never made a lasting impact. The joke will not hold up for someone who reads it and has no idea what so ever who he is. I know you were just sticking up for Y the Last Man but DKR was an inflection point for comics.
    I appreciate that aspect of DKR, and I agree. My point is more that some people have an attitude of 'X does Y and therefore it is objectively good and if you don't like it then you're just too stupid to understand its importance', which is dumb. A compelling argument can be made that these kind of books are objectively important to the history of comics etc, but it doesn't require that they be actually be good (although many will of course, since it increases the likelihood of them holding importance) and whether or not they are good comics is subjective. Those people are a real minority though, in my experience at least. I still have DKR on my shelf and will read it again some day for the exact reason, it holds a place in comics, but in reading it I was not entertained. I don't like DKR because I simply enjoy reading it, but I still appreciate what it is.

    Also, I wouldn't say that I'm sticking up for Y: The Last Man. I don't consider it a brilliant piece of work which is really well structured, weaves an interesting story or speaks to me in any way. I think it's a pretty average and yes simplistic piece of work, but I enjoy it because I read it as exactly that. I read it when I just want to blast through something and not really have to think about it. It was also my first comic so it ties back to my previous point but in a more personal manner. It was my first comic and therefore it has an importance in my own comic book history, and so despite it not being a phenomenal piece of work, it holds a place in my life which holds it up.
    “We have a saying, my people. Don’t kill if you can wound, don’t wound if you can subdue, don’t subdue if you can pacify, and don’t raise your hand at all until you’ve first extended it.”

  7. #1792
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigma View Post
    I appreciate that aspect of DKR, and I agree. My point is more that some people have an attitude of 'X does Y and therefore it is objectively good and if you don't like it then you're just too stupid to understand its importance', which is dumb. A compelling argument can be made that these kind of books are objectively important to the history of comics etc, but it doesn't require that they be actually be good (although many will of course, since it increases the likelihood of them holding importance) and whether or not they are good comics is subjective. Those people are a real minority though, in my experience at least. I still have DKR on my shelf and will read it again some day for the exact reason, it holds a place in comics, but in reading it I was not entertained. I don't like DKR because I simply enjoy reading it, but I still appreciate what it is.

    Also, I wouldn't say that I'm sticking up for Y: The Last Man. I don't consider it a brilliant piece of work which is really well structured, weaves an interesting story or speaks to me in any way. I think it's a pretty average and yes simplistic piece of work, but I enjoy it because I read it as exactly that. I read it when I just want to blast through something and not really have to think about it. It was also my first comic so it ties back to my previous point but in a more personal manner. It was my first comic and therefore it has an importance in my own comic book history, and so despite it not being a phenomenal piece of work, it holds a place in my life which holds it up.
    I agree that people who say you’re stupid if you don’t like a certain thing are obnoxious and actually ironically being stupid in making their argument. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Taste in comic books like any other art form is subjective. I’m not gonna put down anybody for not liking what I like. We all have our own tastes and opinions. Too many people fail to accept or understand that when making their arguments. It’s okay if there are differences of opinion. It’s not the end of the world. We don’t all have to like the same thing. It would be a boring world if that was the case.

  8. #1793
    Mighty Member Enigma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nab432 View Post
    I agree that people who say you’re stupid if you don’t like a certain thing are obnoxious and actually ironically being stupid in making their argument. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Taste in comic books like any other art form is subjective. I’m not gonna put down anybody for not liking what I like. We all have our own tastes and opinions. Too many people fail to accept or understand that when making their arguments. It’s okay if there are differences of opinion. It’s not the end of the world. We don’t all have to like the same thing. It would be a boring world if that was the case.
    Absolutely. It's one of the things that I love about this forum for example, I get different views on a comic and I make a decision on whether to read it, and it is only ever a discussion. I don't enter comic book discussions in any other part of the internet because that's when my experience has been people putting people down for their view of a comic and I think it is particularly bad for getting new readers.

    As another note on DKR. Part of why it remains on my shelf and not on Ebay (and then probably still on my shelf haha), is that it was early in my comic reading journey (although Batman was the majority of my reading) and I believe that if I read it in some years, or even now, I might experience it in a different way. I think this is also something that affects whether or not I read something, is it the right time?
    “We have a saying, my people. Don’t kill if you can wound, don’t wound if you can subdue, don’t subdue if you can pacify, and don’t raise your hand at all until you’ve first extended it.”

  9. #1794
    DC Enthusiast Tony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigma View Post
    As another note on DKR. Part of why it remains on my shelf and not on Ebay (and then probably still on my shelf haha), is that it was early in my comic reading journey (although Batman was the majority of my reading) and I believe that if I read it in some years, or even now, I might experience it in a different way. I think this is also something that affects whether or not I read something, is it the right time?
    It's possible and I hope you get more out of it the next time you read it, but I feel it's more like Citizen Kane than Casablanca. One thing that might be helpful would be reading a few years worth of pre crisis comics before sitting down to reread DKR. I'm not sure that would work though. On a side note though since that time is so much about what Frank and Alan Moore did I'll say I think Moore is the best Writer to ever make a comic book. His level of craft is much higher than that of Miller but as I get older and have less angst I prefer the happy endings that frank delivers to Moore's tour deforce brilliance of sadness, so I appreciate Frank Miller more and more as I age, so maybe?

  10. #1795
    Incredible Member Dick Grayson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigma View Post
    As another note on DKR. Part of why it remains on my shelf and not on Ebay (and then probably still on my shelf haha), is that it was early in my comic reading journey (although Batman was the majority of my reading) and I believe that if I read it in some years, or even now, I might experience it in a different way. I think this is also something that affects whether or not I read something, is it the right time?
    This is absolutely correct. Sometimes we really aren’t “ready” for certain material. Not saying that is the case with Y: The Last Man for the folks that dislike it (as much as I enjoyed that series), but I have had experience with initially disliking a seminal work and then coming back to it later and loving it. I tried to read Watchmen when I was getting back into comics and it was a real slog for me at that time. But I was primarily into Batman and Batman-related stuff only then (this would’ve been around the time between Batman Begins and The Dark Knight coming out). Over the years my tastes broadened considerably and I decided to try Watchmen again because I heard so many good things about the HBO series and knew that show was more of a sequel than an adaptation, so wanted to have all the relevant info going in. It completely clicked for me and I absolutely got why it is held in such high regard, I had a complete reversal.

    Nab432 nailed it too. Just as with music, people like what they like and don’t like what they don’t like. But the flip side of respecting people’s tastes when they dislike something is to not be so categorical with negative opinions either. My take has always been, there is a distinction between disliking something and calling it “bad.” Calling something “bad” is an attempt to judge something objectively which can only be judged subjectively. I feel like using phrases like “for me”, as in “it didn’t live up to the hype for me” is just as important as saying “that’s cool if you don’t like [SEMINAL WORK].” It always bums me out (and I’m not calling anyone out in particular in this thread, don’t worry!) when I see people piling on to trash a work beloved by many.

  11. #1796
    Astonishing Member ARkadelphia's Avatar
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    Currently reading “I Am An Avenger” vol 1
    “The Avengers have been the one point of stability in my entire life. And if The Avengers call… then The Scarlet Witch will always answer.”

  12. #1797
    Extraordinary Member Raffi Ol D'Arcy's Avatar
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    You all make some great points. Personally, I just didn't take to Saga and I can appreciate some like it, I just get tired of seeing it as the best run ever and feel it's getting to be total overkill. One of the first comics I bought as a very young teen was Miller's Daredevil. Boy, was I slightly freaked out with Ben Urich getting "sai -ied" in the back by Elektra or the sewer scenes with those "leprous" people that seemed to be out of a cheap horror flick. I still kept buying the comics btw. I used to wonder why it couldn't be like the Spidey comics my brother was buying. When I got back into comics 25+ years later and read through everything Daredevil, I was just overawed by Miller's and Janson's work. Genius. When I would read comics where Daredevil would make an appearance at the same tine, the disparity in style was considerable and showed how Miller was ahead of his time.

    My wife and I recently saw Parasite. Yes, a very interesting and good film and I was captivated from start to finish, but I wasn't knocked off my feet. Everybody raves about it. Ok, that's fine but IMHO, 1917 should have garnered the Oscar for best film. We see and appreciate things differently.

  13. #1798
    Mighty Member Enigma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffi Ol D'Arcy View Post
    You all make some great points. Personally, I just didn't take to Saga and I can appreciate some like it, I just get tired of seeing it as the best run ever and feel it's getting to be total overkill. One of the first comics I bought as a very young teen was Miller's Daredevil. Boy, was I slightly freaked out with Ben Urich getting "sai -ied" in the back by Elektra or the sewer scenes with those "leprous" people that seemed to be out of a cheap horror flick. I still kept buying the comics btw. I used to wonder why it couldn't be like the Spidey comics my brother was buying. When I got back into comics 25+ years later and read through everything Daredevil, I was just overawed by Miller's and Janson's work. Genius. When I would read comics where Daredevil would make an appearance at the same tine, the disparity in style was considerable and showed how Miller was ahead of his time.

    My wife and I recently saw Parasite. Yes, a very interesting and good film and I was captivated from start to finish, but I wasn't knocked off my feet. Everybody raves about it. Ok, that's fine but IMHO, 1917 should have garnered the Oscar for best film. We see and appreciate things differently.
    People keep telling me that I should read Saga. Unfortunately, when so many people tell me to read something my brain seems to pack it up in a box and bury it under the decking.
    “We have a saying, my people. Don’t kill if you can wound, don’t wound if you can subdue, don’t subdue if you can pacify, and don’t raise your hand at all until you’ve first extended it.”

  14. #1799
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Just started the Bendis/Maleev DD vol 1 omnibus. So weird, the first time I read this I don’t remember seeing the Kunstschau Wien poster in the background. Cool little detail.
    “Now faith, hope, and love remain, and the greatest of these is love.”--1 Corinthians 13:13

    “You had a dream; I have a plan”--Cyclops

    “There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes.”--The Doctor

  15. #1800
    Mighty Member jb681131's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nab432 View Post
    I agree that people who say you’re stupid if you don’t like a certain thing are obnoxious and actually ironically being stupid in making their argument. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Taste in comic books like any other art form is subjective. I’m not gonna put down anybody for not liking what I like. We all have our own tastes and opinions. Too many people fail to accept or understand that when making their arguments. It’s okay if there are differences of opinion. It’s not the end of the world. We don’t all have to like the same thing. It would be a boring world if that was the case.
    I have a different opinion on things. I think people only have different opinions/tastes because they all have different knowledges, expériences and educations.
    With proper and complete eduction, people would be able to analyse better things: a story, a drawing, a composition, a characterisation, ... and therefore have lesser subjective opinions on "art" in general.
    But to acquire such education it takes a very long time and a lot of will. That's why mostly when people tell you they like something, they don't really have arguments, they just like it.
    If someone can give you lots detailed arguments with lots of comparisons and counterexemples, his saying that this is better than this is probably more true. But since most don't have that knowledge, who cares.
    But I thing knowing more would broaden peoples minds and creat less conflicts over meaningless stuff. And people would fight less and agree more with eath other. Making evering simpler.

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