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  1. #1801
    Mighty Member Enigma's Avatar
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    I liked Y: The Last Man, I know a lot of people don't like it though. It is quite a simple comic I think but simple isn't synonymous with bad, and actually sometimes I want to sit down and just breeze through a simple book, other times I want something more intricate

    For example, when I read Dark Knight Returns I was sat there thinking, well this is boring. I think hype doesn't help any book sometimes because if you don't like it, I find it feels even worse because I was expecting it to be good. When I told somebody that I didn't enjoy DKR they said that it was a classic moment in comics and I just 'didn't understand it properly' and I didn't 'appreciate the complexity', and they just sounded like one of those people who 'only reads literature' because they are too intelligent for 'genre books', or in other words they sounded like an idiot. I didn't like the book regardless, but it being hyped up by people around me definitely made it feel worse. I will reread it some time because it was years ago that I read it.
    "Live a poem... or die a fool!"

  2. #1802
    DC Enthusiast Tony's Avatar
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    Some books really are of the moment. Peter Milligan is someone who writes in the moment. The things going on around us and the way they feel ring so true at the time he publishes a story. I think he's probably the best comic writer in that regard comenting on the world around us. Loved Shade and X-Statics but reading them years later after that moment is long past loses some of that relatable impact. I wonder what people think who never lived through those moments.

    Reminds me of Mark Millar "Hulk hate Freddie Prince Jr." A chuckle at the time for the teen heartthrob reference but an actor who never made a lasting impact. The joke will not hold up for someone who reads it and has no idea what so ever who he is. I know you were just sticking up for Y the Last Man but DKR was an inflection point for comics.

  3. #1803
    Mighty Member Enigma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony View Post
    Some books really are of the moment. Peter Milligan is someone who writes in the moment. The things going on around us and the way they feel ring so true at the time he publishes a story. I think he's probably the best comic writer in that regard comenting on the world around us. Loved Shade and X-Statics but reading them years later after that moment is long past loses some of that relatable impact. I wonder what people think who never lived through those moments.

    Reminds me of Mark Millar "Hulk hate Freddie Prince Jr." A chuckle at the time for the teen heartthrob reference but an actor who never made a lasting impact. The joke will not hold up for someone who reads it and has no idea what so ever who he is. I know you were just sticking up for Y the Last Man but DKR was an inflection point for comics.
    I appreciate that aspect of DKR, and I agree. My point is more that some people have an attitude of 'X does Y and therefore it is objectively good and if you don't like it then you're just too stupid to understand its importance', which is dumb. A compelling argument can be made that these kind of books are objectively important to the history of comics etc, but it doesn't require that they be actually be good (although many will of course, since it increases the likelihood of them holding importance) and whether or not they are good comics is subjective. Those people are a real minority though, in my experience at least. I still have DKR on my shelf and will read it again some day for the exact reason, it holds a place in comics, but in reading it I was not entertained. I don't like DKR because I simply enjoy reading it, but I still appreciate what it is.

    Also, I wouldn't say that I'm sticking up for Y: The Last Man. I don't consider it a brilliant piece of work which is really well structured, weaves an interesting story or speaks to me in any way. I think it's a pretty average and yes simplistic piece of work, but I enjoy it because I read it as exactly that. I read it when I just want to blast through something and not really have to think about it. It was also my first comic so it ties back to my previous point but in a more personal manner. It was my first comic and therefore it has an importance in my own comic book history, and so despite it not being a phenomenal piece of work, it holds a place in my life which holds it up.
    "Live a poem... or die a fool!"

  4. #1804
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigma View Post
    I appreciate that aspect of DKR, and I agree. My point is more that some people have an attitude of 'X does Y and therefore it is objectively good and if you don't like it then you're just too stupid to understand its importance', which is dumb. A compelling argument can be made that these kind of books are objectively important to the history of comics etc, but it doesn't require that they be actually be good (although many will of course, since it increases the likelihood of them holding importance) and whether or not they are good comics is subjective. Those people are a real minority though, in my experience at least. I still have DKR on my shelf and will read it again some day for the exact reason, it holds a place in comics, but in reading it I was not entertained. I don't like DKR because I simply enjoy reading it, but I still appreciate what it is.

    Also, I wouldn't say that I'm sticking up for Y: The Last Man. I don't consider it a brilliant piece of work which is really well structured, weaves an interesting story or speaks to me in any way. I think it's a pretty average and yes simplistic piece of work, but I enjoy it because I read it as exactly that. I read it when I just want to blast through something and not really have to think about it. It was also my first comic so it ties back to my previous point but in a more personal manner. It was my first comic and therefore it has an importance in my own comic book history, and so despite it not being a phenomenal piece of work, it holds a place in my life which holds it up.
    I agree that people who say you’re stupid if you don’t like a certain thing are obnoxious and actually ironically being stupid in making their argument. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Taste in comic books like any other art form is subjective. I’m not gonna put down anybody for not liking what I like. We all have our own tastes and opinions. Too many people fail to accept or understand that when making their arguments. It’s okay if there are differences of opinion. It’s not the end of the world. We don’t all have to like the same thing. It would be a boring world if that was the case.

  5. #1805
    Mighty Member Enigma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nab432 View Post
    I agree that people who say you’re stupid if you don’t like a certain thing are obnoxious and actually ironically being stupid in making their argument. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Taste in comic books like any other art form is subjective. I’m not gonna put down anybody for not liking what I like. We all have our own tastes and opinions. Too many people fail to accept or understand that when making their arguments. It’s okay if there are differences of opinion. It’s not the end of the world. We don’t all have to like the same thing. It would be a boring world if that was the case.
    Absolutely. It's one of the things that I love about this forum for example, I get different views on a comic and I make a decision on whether to read it, and it is only ever a discussion. I don't enter comic book discussions in any other part of the internet because that's when my experience has been people putting people down for their view of a comic and I think it is particularly bad for getting new readers.

    As another note on DKR. Part of why it remains on my shelf and not on Ebay (and then probably still on my shelf haha), is that it was early in my comic reading journey (although Batman was the majority of my reading) and I believe that if I read it in some years, or even now, I might experience it in a different way. I think this is also something that affects whether or not I read something, is it the right time?
    "Live a poem... or die a fool!"

  6. #1806
    DC Enthusiast Tony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigma View Post
    As another note on DKR. Part of why it remains on my shelf and not on Ebay (and then probably still on my shelf haha), is that it was early in my comic reading journey (although Batman was the majority of my reading) and I believe that if I read it in some years, or even now, I might experience it in a different way. I think this is also something that affects whether or not I read something, is it the right time?
    It's possible and I hope you get more out of it the next time you read it, but I feel it's more like Citizen Kane than Casablanca. One thing that might be helpful would be reading a few years worth of pre crisis comics before sitting down to reread DKR. I'm not sure that would work though. On a side note though since that time is so much about what Frank and Alan Moore did I'll say I think Moore is the best Writer to ever make a comic book. His level of craft is much higher than that of Miller but as I get older and have less angst I prefer the happy endings that frank delivers to Moore's tour deforce brilliance of sadness, so I appreciate Frank Miller more and more as I age, so maybe?

  7. #1807
    Incredible Member Dick Grayson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigma View Post
    As another note on DKR. Part of why it remains on my shelf and not on Ebay (and then probably still on my shelf haha), is that it was early in my comic reading journey (although Batman was the majority of my reading) and I believe that if I read it in some years, or even now, I might experience it in a different way. I think this is also something that affects whether or not I read something, is it the right time?
    This is absolutely correct. Sometimes we really aren’t “ready” for certain material. Not saying that is the case with Y: The Last Man for the folks that dislike it (as much as I enjoyed that series), but I have had experience with initially disliking a seminal work and then coming back to it later and loving it. I tried to read Watchmen when I was getting back into comics and it was a real slog for me at that time. But I was primarily into Batman and Batman-related stuff only then (this would’ve been around the time between Batman Begins and The Dark Knight coming out). Over the years my tastes broadened considerably and I decided to try Watchmen again because I heard so many good things about the HBO series and knew that show was more of a sequel than an adaptation, so wanted to have all the relevant info going in. It completely clicked for me and I absolutely got why it is held in such high regard, I had a complete reversal.

    Nab432 nailed it too. Just as with music, people like what they like and don’t like what they don’t like. But the flip side of respecting people’s tastes when they dislike something is to not be so categorical with negative opinions either. My take has always been, there is a distinction between disliking something and calling it “bad.” Calling something “bad” is an attempt to judge something objectively which can only be judged subjectively. I feel like using phrases like “for me”, as in “it didn’t live up to the hype for me” is just as important as saying “that’s cool if you don’t like [SEMINAL WORK].” It always bums me out (and I’m not calling anyone out in particular in this thread, don’t worry!) when I see people piling on to trash a work beloved by many.

  8. #1808
    Incredible Member ARkadelphia's Avatar
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    Currently reading “I Am An Avenger” vol 1
    “The Scarlet Witch is the only thing that will scare them. It’s the only thing they’ll respect.” - Hope Summers, Avengers vs X-Men #7

  9. #1809
    Extraordinary Member Raffi Ol D'Arcy's Avatar
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    You all make some great points. Personally, I just didn't take to Saga and I can appreciate some like it, I just get tired of seeing it as the best run ever and feel it's getting to be total overkill. One of the first comics I bought as a very young teen was Miller's Daredevil. Boy, was I slightly freaked out with Ben Urich getting "sai -ied" in the back by Elektra or the sewer scenes with those "leprous" people that seemed to be out of a cheap horror flick. I still kept buying the comics btw. I used to wonder why it couldn't be like the Spidey comics my brother was buying. When I got back into comics 25+ years later and read through everything Daredevil, I was just overawed by Miller's and Janson's work. Genius. When I would read comics where Daredevil would make an appearance at the same tine, the disparity in style was considerable and showed how Miller was ahead of his time.

    My wife and I recently saw Parasite. Yes, a very interesting and good film and I was captivated from start to finish, but I wasn't knocked off my feet. Everybody raves about it. Ok, that's fine but IMHO, 1917 should have garnered the Oscar for best film. We see and appreciate things differently.

  10. #1810
    Mighty Member Enigma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffi Ol D'Arcy View Post
    You all make some great points. Personally, I just didn't take to Saga and I can appreciate some like it, I just get tired of seeing it as the best run ever and feel it's getting to be total overkill. One of the first comics I bought as a very young teen was Miller's Daredevil. Boy, was I slightly freaked out with Ben Urich getting "sai -ied" in the back by Elektra or the sewer scenes with those "leprous" people that seemed to be out of a cheap horror flick. I still kept buying the comics btw. I used to wonder why it couldn't be like the Spidey comics my brother was buying. When I got back into comics 25+ years later and read through everything Daredevil, I was just overawed by Miller's and Janson's work. Genius. When I would read comics where Daredevil would make an appearance at the same tine, the disparity in style was considerable and showed how Miller was ahead of his time.

    My wife and I recently saw Parasite. Yes, a very interesting and good film and I was captivated from start to finish, but I wasn't knocked off my feet. Everybody raves about it. Ok, that's fine but IMHO, 1917 should have garnered the Oscar for best film. We see and appreciate things differently.
    People keep telling me that I should read Saga. Unfortunately, when so many people tell me to read something my brain seems to pack it up in a box and bury it under the decking.
    "Live a poem... or die a fool!"

  11. #1811
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Just started the Bendis/Maleev DD vol 1 omnibus. So weird, the first time I read this I don’t remember seeing the Kunstschau Wien poster in the background. Cool little detail.
    One thing I ask from the LORD, this only do I seek: that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze on the beauty of the LORD and to seek him in his temple.--Psalm 27:4

    “Fortunately for me, I'm not a cop. so, I can break your face into a jigsaw puzzle if I want to...”--Daredevil

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  12. #1812
    Mighty Member jb681131's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nab432 View Post
    I agree that people who say you’re stupid if you don’t like a certain thing are obnoxious and actually ironically being stupid in making their argument. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Taste in comic books like any other art form is subjective. I’m not gonna put down anybody for not liking what I like. We all have our own tastes and opinions. Too many people fail to accept or understand that when making their arguments. It’s okay if there are differences of opinion. It’s not the end of the world. We don’t all have to like the same thing. It would be a boring world if that was the case.
    I have a different opinion on things. I think people only have different opinions/tastes because they all have different knowledges, expériences and educations.
    With proper and complete eduction, people would be able to analyse better things: a story, a drawing, a composition, a characterisation, ... and therefore have lesser subjective opinions on "art" in general.
    But to acquire such education it takes a very long time and a lot of will. That's why mostly when people tell you they like something, they don't really have arguments, they just like it.
    If someone can give you lots detailed arguments with lots of comparisons and counterexemples, his saying that this is better than this is probably more true. But since most don't have that knowledge, who cares.
    But I thing knowing more would broaden peoples minds and creat less conflicts over meaningless stuff. And people would fight less and agree more with eath other. Making evering simpler.

  13. #1813
    Moderator Balakin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jb681131 View Post
    I have a different opinion on things. I think people only have different opinions/tastes because they all have different knowledges, expériences and educations.
    With proper and complete eduction, people would be able to analyse better things: a story, a drawing, a composition, a characterisation, ... and therefore have lesser subjective opinions on "art" in general.
    But to acquire such education it takes a very long time and a lot of will. That's why mostly when people tell you they like something, they don't really have arguments, they just like it.
    If someone can give you lots detailed arguments with lots of comparisons and counterexemples, his saying that this is better than this is probably more true. But since most don't have that knowledge, who cares.
    But I thing knowing more would broaden peoples minds and creat less conflicts over meaningless stuff. And people would fight less and agree more with eath other. Making evering simpler.
    I very much agree and disagree at the same time
    I LOVE critical analysis and I always try my best to give a reason why I dislike or like something, partially because I want people to have a better perspective on the subject matter, not just "me likey" or "me hate, so it's garbage and don't read".
    But also it develops you as a person when you contextualize your own feelings.
    Why do I like A book better than B book? Is it something in the art piece that works or doesn't work or is it just my personal feelings towards certain elements in it?
    The problem is that people can't be experts on everything and let's be honest, being experts about comics is probably one of the least important of them (although I still want comic book criticism to exist, no question).
    I much prefer movie criticism and analysis over comic book discussions so obviously I try to focus on that (but still keeping an eye on comics), but reviewing other mediums is getting increasingly harder (prose books, theatre, music) since there is only so much time in the day I can spend on consuming media.
    Also, even if we can admit that something is objectively good, there's still gonna be a subjective element, because art is still not a mechanical process where you do X thing to access Y emotion.
    No matter how much I tell my younger friends who grew up on High school musical (which according to them is A MUST SEE, and I actually watched them all + the spin off) that the Witch is probably the best horror movie of the last decade, they just gonna say "nah mate...it's boring and pish" and that's it. (and probably there's gonna be some of you here who think the same, even if you actually developed a finer taste in cinema than my friends).
    The same thing that makes me love the movie (atmosphere, personal drama, the bleakness, the weirdly sinister but positive ending, etc) makes them hate it and there's nothing I say do that would change it.
    But also, they approach movie watching very differently than I do. It just has a different function in their lives than in mine.

    But we change as we age too, and develop a taste for things we used to hate and and loose some we used to love.
    I never cared for jidaigeki/chambara up until fairly recently, and now I'm obsessed with it, but a few years ago I've realized a comic book I used to love (just to stir things back to comics) now I absolutely can't stand even tho I very much respect the craftsmanship involved (it's The Goon).

    Anyways, I very much agree that people should develop a more analytical approach sometimes but some things will still remain subjective, no matter what. Diversity of opinion is what makes life interesting.

  14. #1814
    Astonishing Member FluffySheep's Avatar
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    Today I've re-read Superior and I'm currently re-reading Starlight. I wanted something finished, quick and easy going to read.
    Currently Pulling: Amazing Spider-man, Daredevil, Invisible Kingdom, Farmhand, Gideon Falls, Family Tree, Babyteeth, Skulldigger and Skeleton Boy

    “We never lose our demons. We only learn to live above them"

  15. #1815
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    Avengers: No Surrender now followed by No Road Home today and tomorrow. I hope they're good - I like the teams involved
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