Parallel Lives and Mary Jane

[Mister Mets]

So...your telling me that in your honest opinion that Parrallel Lives is a worse retcon than OMD and OMIT and changed things way more than those stories?That ditching the marriage to MJ and 20 years of comic history and continuity was a better trade off than MJ knowing Peter was Spidey since the beginning? I'm sorry...I have to disagree with that and think Parrallel Lives added to MJ's character and back story. OMD and OMIT used a lame Deus Ex Machina plot device to force the marriage and it's history out of 20 years of continuity just so Peter could date an endless amount of women. So...I'm sorry but Parrallel Lives is tame in comparison.

I didn't say Parallel Lives changed more than OMD/ OMIT did. It's a different kind of retcon, in some ways that aren't good (since everything happened on the page exactly as it was on the page in a new context, you don't get to reimagine dialogue as occuring slightly differently.)

Your view of the comparison of the retcons will be different if you think getting of the marriage was a bad thing.

[comicscollector]

As much as i like Gerry Conway stories (I am a big fan of Conway first run in ASM and second run in Spectacular Spider-Man) that retcon i just ignored because to me retcons that do not even happen in the main series of any character are odd.
And that specific retcon contraticted a lot of stories just to make Mary Jane character more relevant but not through normal storytelling characterisation and cohesive narrative.

[Starrius]

As much as i like Gerry Conway stories (I am a big fan of Conway first run in ASM and second run in Spectacular Spider-Man) that retcon i just ignored because to me retcons that do not even happen in the main series of any character are odd.
And that specific retcon contraticted a lot of stories just to make Mary Jane character more relevant but not through normal storytelling characterisation and cohesive narrative.

I agree

the retcon wasn't even necessary

She was already very relevant.

Mary Jane's backstory back in Amazing Spider-Man issue #259 was enough.

May and Anna being dear friends and wanting to get Peter and Mary Jane together since Amazing Spider-Man issue #15 is another imho

[Confuzzled]

To me, the retcon adds an angle of realism to MJ, a girl who could have had almost any boy she wanted, taking an interest in the nephew of her aunt's elderly neighbour. Ditto for her specifically telling May she was a Spider-Man fan. I think through that declaration and May's reaction to it, she was gauging whether May herself was aware of her nephew's double life.

It makes her calculating to a degree, but the fact that she still turned out to be an awesome person just emphasises the multiple dimensions of her character. That's what I find most appealing about her.

[Starrius]

To me, the retcon adds an angle of realism to MJ, a girl who could have had almost any boy she wanted, taking an interest in the nephew of her aunt's elderly neighbour. Ditto for her specifically telling May she was a Spider-Man fan. I think through that declaration and May's reaction to it, she was gauging whether May herself was aware of her nephew's double life.

It makes her calculating to a degree, but the fact that she still turned out to be an awesome person just emphasises the multiple dimensions of her character. That's what I find most appealing about her.

In the old comics, she was shown to have an attraction to Peter since she,Peter,May,Anna had dinner in Amazing Spider-Man issue #43.

In the same issue when Spider-Man just about shows up to fight the Rhino, Mary Jane shouts
"It's Spidey! Isn't he the dreamiest!"
"Petey better get back before he misses all the fun."


when she was alone with her Aunt Anna in regards to Peter, Mary Jane told her:
"He's just the least little bit square..but outside of that, he really turns me on!
in Amazing Spider-Man issue #45

[Vixx]

I thought the whole shitty childhood angle helped this -

I've seen it up close, in my example (mom) stuff from so long ago just lets her see things others miss - and slowly slip out of always having her guard up. MJ knew for a long time what he was doing, saw he was doing good, saw him hustling to keep in secret and didn't out him

In 123 she was comforting a friend - but a friend she knew didn't just lose someone - but had a front row seat and was so close to saving her and failing. His grief and second guessing had to be off the charts compared to a random act of NYC in the 70s violence.

Everyone else in Petes life had things happen around them - MJ and Pete had it happen to them... It let them be really honest with each other ... I figured we never really knew her until 123 - but it was always there.

I really liked Parallel Lives; with or without the reveal.

[Confuzzled]

In the old comics, she was shown to have an attraction to Peter since she,Peter,May,Anna had dinner in Amazing Spider-Man issue #43.

In the same issue when Spider-Man just about shows up to fight the Rhino, Mary Jane shouts
"It's Spidey! Isn't he the dreamiest!"
"Petey better get back before he misses all the fun."


when she was alone with her Aunt Anna in regards to Peter, Mary Jane told her:
"He's just the least little bit square..but outside of that, he really turns me on!
in Amazing Spider-Man issue #45

None of that contradicts the retcon though. In fact, it only makes it more interesting and shows she was already evaluating Peter on his own terms and separate from the public image of Spider-Man, despite having the knowledge that they were the one and the same.

Okay maybe "Peter get back before he misses all the fun", but knowing her, she could be using "fun" to refer to herself and the date. Like I said, if you are onboard, it is easy to come up with in character reasons for most of her out of continuity behaviour.

[Starrius]

None of that contradicts the retcon though. In fact, it only makes it more interesting and shows she was already evaluating Peter on his own terms and separate from the public image of Spider-Man, despite having the knowledge that they were the one and the same.

Okay maybe "Peter get back before he misses all the fun", but knowing her, she could be using "fun" to refer to herself and the date. Like I said, if you are onboard, it is easy to come up with in character reasons for most of her out of continuity behaviour.

I never mentioned that it did contradict the retcon.

I was just pointing out that there were old 60s comic issues showing that she was attracted to Peter, was a fan of Spider-Man before the retcon

[phantom1592]

So...your telling me that in your honest opinion that Parrallel Lives is a worse retcon than OMD and OMIT and changed things way more than those stories?That ditching the marriage to MJ and 20 years of comic history and continuity was a better trade off than MJ knowing Peter was Spidey since the beginning? I'm sorry...I have to disagree with that and think Parrallel Lives added to MJ's character and back story. OMD and OMIT used a lame Deus Ex Machina plot device to force the marriage and it's history out of 20 years of continuity just so Peter could date an endless amount of women. So...I'm sorry but Parrallel Lives is tame in comparison.

I was recently reading a reprint of ASM 15 or 46. (First appearances of Kraven and Shocker) and someone was spying on Peter and he realized it with his spider-sense and concocted an elaborate scheme to convince them that Peter and Spider-man were chatting about photo opportunities. Which only confirmed what I already remembered from the Iconic ASM 39 where Green Goblin developed the gas that negates his spider-sense for the sole purpose of sneaking up on him and learning his identity.

This had been long established from the beginning. Pete can't be 'spied' on. Whether the idea of MJ knowing all along is good or bad or cheapens her or whatever... The basic established powers say that doesn't work.

IF she caught him in a lie, or Detected similar injuries, or stumbled across a costume and was covering for him for years... that would be fine (Those earlier issues would still read different, but chalk it up to her acting.) However, the 'I was watching out the window and just saw' was garbage. That's a terrible Retcon.

As for which Retcon was better or worse... I don't know. OMD was REALLY bad, but it was a FORWARD retcon. Daredevil USED to know Peter's identity, MJ and him used to be married, and then the world rebooted and history was changed.... but the characters are still moving forward if that makes sense. It's similar to DC's Reboots where one or two books just keep going but a few key points are diferent.

USUALLY I DO prefer that to a retcon that is actually a 'past' Retcon where they say 'OH YEAH... everything you read before is changed now. What the original writers had intended was crap and my hip new spin on things is much better. I find those generally insulting to both the writers and the readers.

In the grand scheme, PL was less intrusive then OMD... but It's still a retcon that doesn't work in the established continuity.

[Agent Z]

I was recently reading a reprint of ASM 15 or 46. (First appearances of Kraven and Shocker) and someone was spying on Peter and he realized it with his spider-sense and concocted an elaborate scheme to convince them that Peter and Spider-man were chatting about photo opportunities. Which only confirmed what I already remembered from the Iconic ASM 39 where Green Goblin developed the gas that negates his spider-sense for the sole purpose of sneaking up on him and learning his identity.

This had been long established from the beginning. Pete can't be 'spied' on. Whether the idea of MJ knowing all along is good or bad or cheapens her or whatever... The basic established powers say that doesn't work.

IF she caught him in a lie, or Detected similar injuries, or stumbled across a costume and was covering for him for years... that would be fine (Those earlier issues would still read different, but chalk it up to her acting.) However, the 'I was watching out the window and just saw' was garbage. That's a terrible Retcon.

As for which Retcon was better or worse... I don't know. OMD was REALLY bad, but it was a FORWARD retcon. Daredevil USED to know Peter's identity, MJ and him used to be married, and then the world rebooted and history was changed.... but the characters are still moving forward if that makes sense. It's similar to DC's Reboots where one or two books just keep going but a few key points are diferent.

USUALLY I DO prefer that to a retcon that is actually a 'past' Retcon where they say 'OH YEAH... everything you read before is changed now. What the original writers had intended was crap and my hip new spin on things is much better. I find those generally insulting to both the writers and the readers.

In the grand scheme, PL was less intrusive then OMD... but It's still a retcon that doesn't work in the established continuity.

Peter's spider sense is supposed to warn him of danger. I wouldn't classify MJ as dangerous

[phantom1592]

Peter's spider sense is supposed to warn him of danger. I wouldn't classify MJ as dangerous

Which had been brought up by MJ herself too. "I don't think a loving wife with a throw pillow counts..."

But it does. He uses it to walk about the living room without looking, he's used it to detect such passive threats as 'That man you passed has a gun', even if there wasn't any specific threat to Peter himself. Spider-sense has been Deus ex machina throughout the years that should have and has covered this exact situation in the past.

heck, it's been used to track spider-tracers on inanimate cars...

[Agent Z]

Which had been brought up by MJ herself too. "I don't think a loving wife with a throw pillow counts..."

But it does. He uses it to walk about the living room without looking, he's used it to detect such passive threats as 'That man you passed has a gun', even if there wasn't any specific threat to Peter himself. Spider-sense has been Deus ex machina throughout the years that should have and has covered this exact situation in the past.

heck, it's been used to track spider-tracers on inanimate cars...

It warns him of danger in general not just to himself. MJ is not (and should not) be a danger to him.

[phantom1592]

It warns him of danger in general not just to himself. MJ is not (and should not) be a danger to him.

Opinions of danger are irrelevant. You're arguing for what should be, I'm pointing out what is. Whether it makes sense or not, exposing his identity is treated as a danger to himself as Stan wrote it. "If anyone was watching me, I'd be aware of it."



That's the one that always stuck in my memory as a kid, but that's not the first or last time it's used that way. It was just the 'way things were'. MJ spying on him simply should not work. She can figure it out other ways... but that one doesn't fly.

[Agent Z]

Opinions of danger are irrelevant. You're arguing for what should be, I'm pointing out what is. Whether it makes sense or not, exposing his identity is treated as a danger to himself as Stan wrote it. "If anyone was watching me, I'd be aware of it."



That's the one that always stuck in my memory as a kid, but that's not the first or last time it's used that way. It was just the 'way things were'. MJ spying on him simply should not work. She can figure it out other ways... but that one doesn't fly.

He's being spied on by a guy who has repeatedly been shown to be dangerous. MJ is not dangerous

[phantom1592]

He's being spied on by a guy who has repeatedly been shown to be dangerous. MJ is not dangerous

Irrelevant.

You would have a point if Peter was thinking "I'd be warned if any of my deadliest villains were watching me".... Read it again.

"Thanks to my spider-sense I don't have to worry about these quick change sessions. If ANYONE was watching me, I'd be aware of it"

Not just villains. Not just dangerous people... He doesn't want ANYONE to spy him changing in the alley, and he's unconcerned about it because his Spider-Sense would warn him if ANYONE was watching. That would include little old ladies walking the dog, The guy selling pretzels on the street and even Teenage girls across the street that he either never met or was actively avoiding.

Being a fanatic MJ fan doesn't change the fact that Conway dropped the ball on that one aspect of his retcon. It's RIGHT there...