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  1. #61
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Something that i realized, is that this Zod seems to be a lot more nicer than his Pre-Flashpoint incarnation, at least he seems to care about Ursa and Lor-Zod a lot more, that Johns version.

    It this is true, is likely than Chris didn't an infance as crappy as the previous universe.

  2. #62
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    Superman needs more characters like the guy who cant even keep his basic origin and motivation straight for more than a decade. Manta just looks cool, he needs far more work.
    Zod and his family are infinitely superior. Zod is also a classic while it only became cool to like Manta in 2010
    Last edited by darkseidpwns; 07-27-2017 at 07:41 AM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Superman needs more characters like the guy who cant even keep his basic origin and motivation straight for more than a decade. Manta just looks cool, he needs far more work.
    Zod and his family are infinitely superior. Zod is also a classic while it only became cool to like Manta in 2010
    Zod's origin and motivation change even more than Manta's and The only time he's been universally liked is when he was played by Terrence Stamp. That most versions tend to kill him off doesn't help. Being a "classic" only helps so much. Every story he's been in has either been forgettable or controversial
    Last edited by Agent Z; 07-27-2017 at 07:49 AM.

  4. #64
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Zod's origin and motivation change even more than Manta's and The only time he's been universally liked is when he was played by Terrence Stamp. That most versions tend to kill him off doesn't help. Being a "classic" only helps so much
    Zod motivations is usually bringing the greatness of Krypton back, in one way or another. His personality is what is changes, sometimes he is more ruthless other times he has a sense of honor.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Zod's origin and motivation change even more than Manta's and The only time he's been universally liked is when he was played by Terrence Stamp. That most versions tend to kill him off doesn't help. Being a "classic" only helps so much. Every story he's been in has either been forgettable or controversial
    Only helps so much? Like being instantly iconic and recognizable.
    Zod is Zod, he's a xenophobic Kryptonian general with a female companion and thug who has hatred for the house of El.
    Black Manta is autistic, no wait he got raped while Aquaman didnt help him, no wait Arthur killed his father, nah he wants a homeland for Black people oh wait he's an actual Manta.

    The only discrepany with Zod is the Avruisikin version but even that guy was inspired by the actual Zod's ghost.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Zod motivations is usually bringing the greatness of Krypton back, in one way or another. His personality is what is changes, sometimes he is more ruthless other times he has a sense of honor.
    Sometimes it's to bring the greatness of Krypton back. Other times he doesn't give a damn about Krypton and just wants to conquer and destroy for the sake of conquering and destroying. Sometimes he just wants petty revenge on Jor El's son. And sometimes he's a KGB agent whose parents were cosmonauts that were exposed to radiation from Clark's ship. Yeah remember that bit of idiocy?

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Sometimes it's to bring the greatness of Krypton back. Other times he doesn't give a damn about Krypton and just wants to conquer and destroy for the sake of conquering and destroying. Sometimes he just wants petty revenge on Jor El's son. And sometimes he's a KGB agent whose parents were cosmonauts that were exposed to radiation from Clark's ship. Yeah remember that bit of idiocy?
    Already addressed it all.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Only helps so much? Like being instantly iconic and recognizable.
    Zod is Zod, he's a xenophobic Kryptonian general with a female companion and thug who has hatred for the house of El.
    Black Manta is autistic, no wait he got raped while Aquaman didnt help him, no wait Arthur killed his father, nah he wants a homeland for Black people oh wait he's an actual Manta.

    The only discrepany with Zod is the Avruisikin version but even that guy was inspired by the actual Zod's ghost.
    Iconic and recognisable do not equal good character. For all his longevity, Zod has rarely ever worked as an interesting villain. And the one time he did had more to do with the guy playing him. They can't even keep the names of his minions consistent. Orbwhy he goes after Earth
    Last edited by Agent Z; 07-27-2017 at 08:14 AM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Iconic and recognisable do not equal good character. For all his longevity, Zod has rarely ever worked as an interesting villain. And the one time he did had more to do with the guy playing him.
    Whatever you say I'll be sure to use that logic to prove Kite-Man is better than Joker...or not.

    I can say the same for Manta. Zod's power,backstory and personality atleast make him a logical foil for Superman. Manta doesnt stack up against Orin on any level. He's like Hush, just some prick.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Whatever you say I'll be sure to use that logic to prove Kite-Man is better than Joker...or not.

    I can say the same for Manta. Zod's power,backstory and personality atleast make him a logical foil for Superman. Manta doesnt stack up against Orin on any level. He's like Hush, just some prick.
    Given how stale the Jokers gotten for me, I'd pick virtually any villain as being better than him.

    Manta has been Aquaman's undisputed arch nemesis for decades and is the second most recognisable character of his franchise after Aquaman himself. For all Zod supposedly has what it takes to be a great villain, he's rarely if ever lived up to the hype. Manta has managed to become a fan favourite in spite of the odds stacked against him while writers do the same crap with Zod before killing him off after they and the audience get bored with him. The only reason he never went the way of Ultra Humanite is because Terence Stamp made "Kneel before Zod" sound cool

  11. #71
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    Yeah, like I said whatever.

    Manta is a fan favorite? BWHAHAHA. He has only 3 mainstream appearances and he didn't fight Aquaman in ANY OF THEM.

    Ok on to a serious note, Manta has nothing going for him as an Aquaman villain. He doesn't possess the power, the personality, the resources, the motivation, the.. well ANYTHING that makes him an Aquaman villain. He's generic, his only connection with Aquaman is that he hates him, that's it and for that reason writers have been scrambling to come up with a motivation to justify said hate, that's why they revise it every few years and it will get revised again because they still haven't found that sweet spot yet.

    Whatever you call Zod, he makes sense as a Superman villain. Manta could just as easily start fighting Batman tomorrow and it would make no difference, he's that generic, a simple pirate.

    Using status of Aquaman's rogues gallery proves what again exactly? we're not swimming in deep waters here.

    And if Manta wasn't a Black guy they'd have dumped in the bottom of the ocean a long time ago, see now back to a world with facts.
    Last edited by darkseidpwns; 07-27-2017 at 08:56 AM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Yeah, like I said whatever.

    Manta is a fan favorite? BWHAHAHA. He has only 3 mainstream appearances and he didn't fight Aquaman in ANY OF THEM.
    I’m sorry apparently you have a different idea of what fan favorite is as I said nothing about his mainstream appearances.

    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Ok on to a serious note, Manta has nothing going for him as an Aquaman villain. He doesn't possess the power, the personality, the resources, the motivation, the.. well ANYTHING that makes him an Aquaman villain.
    The stories he’s been in say otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    He's generic,
    And Zod isn’t? How many superpowered alien conquerors exist in Superman’s rogues gallery alone?

    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    his only connection with Aquaman is that he hates him, that's it and for that reason writers have been scrambling to come up with a motivation to justify said hate, that's why they revise it every few years and it will get revised again because they still haven't found that sweet spot yet.
    Same with Zod. And they’ve been doing that for far longer and the guy’s never evolved past a joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Whatever you call Zod, he makes sense as a Superman villain. Manta could just as easily start fighting Batman tomorrow and it would make no difference, he's that generic, a simple pirate.
    Because Batman is so known for fighting pirates.

    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Using status of Aquaman's rogues gallery proves what again exactly? we're not swimming in deep waters here.
    Which makes him being a more interesting character than Zod all the more incredible really.

    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    And if Manta wasn't a Black guy they'd have dumped in the bottom of the ocean a long time ago, see now back to a world with facts.
    I’d love to live in this world of facts you live in where being a black character in a superhero comic universe is enough to save you from being killed off, put into limbo, put into the background or erased. Cause we all saw how much it helped Bill Foster, Bishop, Orpheus, Anita Fite, John Stewart, Synch, the Milestone characters, Hot Spot.. oh wait.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I’m sorry apparently you have a different idea of what fan favorite is as I said nothing about his mainstream appearances.
    So what exactly are you basing his "fan favorite status" on again? or as usual you just invented it because you like him. With your dismissal of Joker I shouldn't be surprised. But then you think Cheetah is the greatest villain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The stories he’s been in say otherwise.
    Such as? when Geoff Johns retires, Manta will be revised again and then even John's run will end up dated and irrelevant, like all the other Manta stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    And Zod isn’t? How many superpowered alien conquerors exist in Superman’s rogues gallery alone?
    There can be a hundred of them, Zod reflects Superman on multiple levels. That's the mark of a good villain, Manta doesn't reflect Arthur one bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Same with Zod. And they’ve been doing that for far longer and the guy’s never evolved past a joke.
    Zod is a joke? are we sure we aren't talking about Cheetah the she jobber who cant even handle street level characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Because Batman is so known for fighting pirates.
    Batman has fought every type of villain and yes including pirates(Cap Fear) and the current All Star arc is also pirate based. Manta would be just another KG Beast, except Black instead of Russian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Which makes him being a more interesting character than Zod all the more incredible really.
    Being the best villain of a shit gallery makes him interesting? okey dokey

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I’d love to live in this world of facts you live in where being a black character in a superhero comic universe is enough to save you from being killed off, put into limbo, put into the background or erased. Cause we all saw how much it helped Bill Foster, Bishop, Orpheus, Anita Fite, John Stewart, Synch, the Milestone characters, Hot Spot.. oh wait.
    I'd also like to live in a world in which Penguin and Scarecrow were treated as uber Earth shattering villains in the comics because of a movie appearance. Your logic was preposterous and silly, next you'll be saying Joker is only cool because of Hamill and Ledger. Who cares why they're famous, they are PERIOD, Black Manta isn't PERIOD.

    Zod is iconic, well known, that's fact and his accomplishment. You're dismissing it and claiming Manta is "fan favorite" and interesting and whatever without providing any evidence.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    So what exactly are you basing his "fan favorite status" on again?
    His popularity?
    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    or as usual you just invented it because you like him. With your dismissal of Joker I shouldn't be surprised. But then you think Cheetah is the greatest villain.
    Are you at all capable of making an argument without resorting to hyperbole or call backs to arguments that have nothing to do with the one at present?


    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Such as?
    Death of a Prince, Brightest Day and Dan Abnett’s run. Here’s where you mention all those great Zod stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    when Geoff Johns retires, Manta will be revised again and then even John's run will end up dated and irrelevant, like all the other Manta stories.
    Zod will be killed by Superman in a controversial story following the end of this run and will be deemed irrelevant.
    See, I can make psychic predictions to.

    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    There can be a hundred of them, Zod reflects Superman on multiple levels.
    As do several Superman villains. And they do it way better.

    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Zod is a joke? are we sure we aren't talking about Cheetah the she jobber who cant even handle street level characters.
    No we’re talking about the guy who’s never lived up to his hype in the comics and who doesn’t even stay alive long enough to be interesting.


    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Batman has fought every type of villain and yes including pirates(Cap Fear) and the current All Star arc is also pirate based.
    Which part of “known for fighting pirates” didn’t you get? Batman is not the only superhero whose fought every type of villain. Doesn’t mean having him fight Manta, a guy known for fighting Aquaman, will make more sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Manta would be just another KG Beast, except Black instead of Russian.
    And yet he isn’t.


    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Being the best villain of a shit gallery makes him interesting? okey dokey
    Certainly more interesting than Zod.


    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    I'd also like to live in a world in which Penguin and Scarecrow were treated as uber Earth shattering villains in the comics because of a movie appearance. Your logic was preposterous and silly, next you'll be saying Joker is only cool because of Hamill and Ledger. Who cares why they're famous, they are PERIOD, Black Manta isn't PERIOD.
    Manta isn’t famous? That’s news to me.
    My logic is silly? As opposed to what, you’re brilliant assertion that being black is enough to protect you in a superhero comic? That’s rich.

    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Zod is iconic, well known, that's fact and his accomplishment. You're dismissing it and claiming Manta is "fan favorite" and interesting and whatever without providing any evidence.
    Just being well known is not an accomplishment. The Kardashians are well known to. I’ve provided evidence of Manta being interesting (or at least more interesting than Zod).

  15. #75
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Lol my comment about Black Manta wasn't even meant to say he's a better character than Zod. I love General Zod. I just don't think Zod has been written well, he should not be an evil Superman. He's General Zod, he's nothing like Kal-El almost immediately. He's a tough character though because most versions of him end in his literal demise.

    I loved him in SUPERMAN II and MAN OF STEEL.

    My point about Black Manta was that he isn't simply an "evil Aquaman", he's a separate character who has his own motivations that just include a blood feud with the sovereign king of the sea. I want to see more Superman characters akin to that. Give me Brainiac, Terra Man, Nimrod, etc. There's nothing wrong with admitting that the AQUAMAN books have put a lot of work into world building and making old concepts new and exciting.

    Metallo would be the perfect character for this treatment.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 07-27-2017 at 10:19 AM.
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