Action Comics #984 SPOILERS thread

[Frontier]

Any major antagonist is going to reflect the protagonist in some way, that's just how it goes.

Jurgens has given us a good ending that completely changes the PZ gang dynamic and changes the future encounters with Zod. You can't just beat up a kid and his mom and throw them in phantom jail. Zod has a new wrinkle to his motivation that isn't mustache twirling evil, but it should still make him more dangerous.

Can't wait for this next two part story, either.

Well, Ursa's probably as bad as Zod so I don't think there's going to be much compunction about fighting and defeating her, but what to do about Lor-Zod would probably be a big issue.

[darkseidpwns]

His popularity?

And what exactly is the goddamn indicator? he's a marginally popular villain at best. That doesn't make him fan favorite, unless you're Scott Snyder and Manta is Harper Row.

Are you at all capable of making an argument without resorting to hyperbole or call backs to arguments that have nothing to do with the one at present?

You dismissed Zod's iconic status, you dismissed Joker and yet you're trying to convince me Manta is fan favorite. Stick to facts, that's all I ask.

Death of a Prince, Brightest Day and Dan Abnett’s run. Here’s where you mention all those great Zod stories.

Forgotten, forgotten, forgotten, next time he's revised they'll matter even less.You mean like the one in whose very thread you're posting? LOL

Zod will be killed by Superman in a controversial story following the end of this run and will be deemed irrelevant.
See, I can make psychic predictions to.

You can only make up non sense, we're both aware of Manta's history and how he goes from fighting for Black rights to being autistic. His current backstory still sucks and therefore will be revised when it runs its course. There's nothing time less about this struggle.

As do several Superman villains. And they do it way better.

They really dont.

No we’re talking about the guy who’s never lived up to his hype in the comics and who doesn’t even stay alive long enough to be interesting.

Versus the guy who just kills for no reason and gets his backstory/primary motivation changed more times than infants get their diapers changed and you have the nerve to call Joker stale. Manta is like Zsasz minus the schizophrenia, which means they cant even play with mental illness. He's just DC's Carnage, he's a killer who looks cool.

Which part of “known for fighting pirates” didn’t you get? Batman is not the only superhero whose fought every type of villain. Doesn’t mean having him fight Manta, a guy known for fighting Aquaman, will make more sense.

Aquaman isn't well known for fighting pirates either, Manta cant even get that gimmick right because they're always interested in having him be a stone cold emotionless killer, atleast the Batman villain Tiger Shark does it right

And yet he isn’t.

Certainly more interesting than Zod.

Which you keep saying over and over and never prove, in this entire overblown argument NOT ONCE have you actually talked about Manta's actual powers, backstory, motivation even though I brought these up multiple times. You just keep harping about him being fan favorite.

Manta isn’t famous? That’s news to me.

No, he isn't, only some sections of geek dome became aware of him a mere few years ago.

My logic is silly? As opposed to what, you’re brilliant assertion that being black is enough to protect you in a superhero comic? That’s rich.

I never made that assertion, you made the assertion that Zod only matters because of one movie to which I replied that we can twist Manta's relevance in a similar manner down to his skin color. Yes I'm aware its a stupid thing to say, problem is that you arent.

Just being well known is not an accomplishment. The Kardashians are well known to. I’ve provided evidence of Manta being interesting (or at least more interesting than Zod).

Yes it is fame or infamy is an accomplishment wise guy, I'd love to see your face on the tabloids if you think its that easy.
You've provided nothing, you continuously choose to back away from any talk about Manta's character and backstories, calling Manta fan favorite again and again is not evidence.

[darkseidpwns]

Lol my comment about Black Manta wasn't even meant to say he's a better character than Zod. I love General Zod. I just don't think Zod has been written well, he should not be an evil Superman. He's General Zod, he's nothing like Kal-El almost immediately. He's a tough character though because most versions of him end in his literal demise.

I loved him in SUPERMAN II and MAN OF STEEL.

My point about Black Manta was that he isn't simply an "evil Aquaman", he's a separate character who has his own motivations that just include a blood feud with the sovereign king of the sea. I want to see more Superman characters akin to that. Give me Brainiac, Terra Man, Nimrod, etc. There's nothing wrong with admitting that the AQUAMAN books have put a lot of work into world building and making old concepts new and exciting.

Metallo would be the perfect character for this treatment.

Zod is not an evil Superman, Ultraman is evil Superman, Zod is a reflection of Superman, no different from how Scarecrow or Mr Freeze are reflections of Batman, neither of them falls in the same category as Wrath or Prometheus.
Black Manta isn't evil Aquaman you're right, he's just evil, that's all she wrote gentlemen.

[Agent Z]

And what exactly is the goddamn indicator? he's a marginally popular villain at best. That doesn't make him fan favorite, unless you're Scott Snyder and Manta is Harper Row.

How about being popular enough to appear in numerous comic book runs, two cartoons and a movie? I’ve seen excitement from casual fans for Manta appearing in Aquaman while whrn Zod was announced for MoS all I heard was “him again?”

You dismissed Zod's iconic status, you dismissed Joker and yet you're trying to convince me Manta is fan favorite. Stick to facts, that's all I ask.

How about you follow your own advice and stop getting triggered because not everyone likes your faves. I said I personally found Joker stale and said Zod’s iconic status does not make him an interesting character.

Forgotten, forgotten, forgotten,

No they aren’t.

next time he's revised they'll matter even less.

As will Zod’s.

You mean like the one in whose very thread you're posting? LOL

Oh you mean the story where people care more about his family than him? Or how people flat out said this is the best he’s been in years?

You can only make up non sense, we're both aware of Manta's history and how he goes from fighting for Black rights to being autistic. His current backstory still sucks and therefore will be revised when it runs its course. There's nothing time less about this struggle.

What evidence do you have that it sucks? You keep saying that and yet have offered no proof for it. Especially given that it’s apparently being used for Aquaman’s debut film.

They really dont.

Yeah they do.

Versus the guy who just kills for no reason and gets his backstory/primary motivation changed more times than infants get their diapers changed and you have the nerve to call Joker stale. Manta is like Zsasz minus the schizophrenia, which means they cant even play with mental illness. He's just DC's Carnage, he's a killer who looks cool.

He’s a human with the skill, determination and drive to challenge the King of the Seas.

Aquaman isn't well known for fighting pirates either, Manta cant even get that gimmick right because they're always interested in having him be a stone cold emotionless killer, atleast the Batman villain Tiger Shark does it right

I don’t know where you get your knowledge of pirates from, but these guys aren’t the goofy, jovial pranksters that Disney typically presents them as.

Which you keep saying over and over and never prove, in this entire overblown argument NOT ONCE have you actually talked about Manta's actual powers, backstory, motivation even though I brought these up multiple times. You just keep harping about him being fan favorite.

And not once have you ever proven what actually makes Zod a good character or why he’s actually interesting other than he’s “iconic” which has always been one of the least convincing non arguments ever used by comic fans. You’ve ignored how often Zod’s own origins and motivations have changed or how many crappy stories he’s been in.

I never made that assertion, you made the assertion that Zod only matters because of one movie to which I replied that we can twist Manta's relevance in a similar manner down to his skin color. Yes I'm aware its a stupid thing to say, problem is that you arent.

Difference is I can prove Manta’s relevance is important beyond his skin color.

Yes it is fame or infamy is an accomplishment wise guy, I'd love to see your face on the tabloids if you think its that easy.

Given what the tabloids report on, I’d say it won’t be that difficult actually.

You've provided nothing, you continuously choose to back away from any talk about Manta's character and backstories, calling Manta fan favorite again and again is not evidence.

And saying Zod is well known is not an argument for him being a better character.

[TheCape]

Eh, i don't want to take in any sides (i disagreed with boths anyways), but i think think that most people don't really remenber Brightest Day, regardless of his quality and i would argue that it wasn't that big anyway.

[darkseidpwns]

How about being popular enough to appear in numerous comic book runs, two cartoons and a movie? I’ve seen excitement from casual fans for Manta appearing in Aquaman while whrn Zod was announced for MoS all I heard was “him again?”

Zod has appeared in numerous comicbook runs as well and 2 films, one of which is actually considered one of the best cbms of all time. Manta never even fought Arthur in any of those cartoons, ergo generic, he can fight and get killed by a possessed Batman and get his name changed or eaten by a shark and not a F will be given

How about you follow your own advice and stop getting triggered because not everyone likes your faves. I said I personally found Joker stale and said Zod’s iconic status does not make him an interesting character.

Zod aint a fave of mine, I prefer Luthor, Henshaw, Mongul and Xa-Du over him. I said Zod being iconic is a bonus, an accomplishment which it is, you refuted by calling Manta a fan favorite lol.

No they aren’t.

Yes they are, Brightest Day was ignored the very next month after it ended. Abnett's run picked up steam when the new artist joined, well after Manta's story was over. This Rebirth era run on the other hand has revitalized Superman after the New 52 slump.

As will Zod’s.

Ha, no, watch as Lor-Zod ends up on Super Sons

Oh you mean the story where people care more about his family than him? Or how people flat out said this is the best he’s been in years?

Just like people care more about Kaldur than Manta or how they flat out say Manta became worthwhile only after Johns got his hands on him.

What evidence do you have that it sucks? You keep saying that and yet have offered no proof for it. Especially given that it’s apparently being used for Aquaman’s debut film.

My evidence is history, all it takes is a quick wiki if you're too lazy. It can be used for the debut film, just like Joker killing Batman's parents was used in Burton's film, it doesn't matter. There is nothing timeless or elemental about this conflict, its just 2 guys fighting because one of the guys hates the other, the reason in question keeps changing every other decade.

Yeah they do.

He’s a human with the skill, determination and drive to challenge the King of the Seas.

But no actual reason for anything he does.

I don’t know where you get your knowledge of pirates from, but these guys aren’t the goofy, jovial pranksters that Disney typically presents them as.

I gave you Tiger Shark as an example and yet you're bringing up Disney, Manta doesn't even care about money, its not even about the thrill of finding the treasure, its just a part time job he takes before he returns to killing for no reason, therefore wasting the pirate gimmick.

And not once have you ever proven what actually makes Zod a good character or why he’s actually interesting other than he’s “iconic” which has always been one of the least convincing non arguments ever used by comic fans. You’ve ignored how often Zod’s own origins and motivations have changed or how many crappy stories he’s been in.

Zod is a Kryptonian megalomaniac who represents Superman's doomed planet, he's an xenophobic nationalist living in the past, a man of yesterday to Kal's Man of Tomorrow. His rivalry with Supes is automatically elemental and bigger than the characters in it.

Difference is I can prove Manta’s relevance is important beyond his skin color.

I can prove the same for Zod, so you bringing it up was silly in the first place.

Given what the tabloids report on, I’d say it won’t be that difficult actually.

So you keep saying but why aren't you famous then?

And saying Zod is well known is not an argument for him being a better character.

Being well known is one of the signs of being better.

[Assam]

Being well known is one of the signs of being better.

I'm hanging back on this one (I mostly agree with Z), but as always Pwns, when you try to argue the quoted point, I feel the need to point out that no, no it isn't. This is an argument used across all of fiction (And in comics in particular when people try to argue that supposed iconogrophy makes a character better) and it is flat out wrong.

[Flash Gordon]

Black Manta will be very well known next year, so no worries.

[Kuwagaton]

Well, Ursa's probably as bad as Zod so I don't think there's going to be much compunction about fighting and defeating her, but what to do about Lor-Zod would probably be a big issue.

With Ursa I mean in the sense that it's not like when Diana was around to tackle Faora. Superman by himself would probably find it very awkward to deal with the other two and Lor Zod probably wouldn't stay on the sidelines if both parents are attacked.

[Superlad93]

but what to do about Lor-Zod would probably be a big issue.

That's actually a really cool point that I hadn't even stopped to consider. The very idea of Zod having a "dark Superman family" is super, super goofy, but it's kind of just goofy enough to work really well. Giving him a planet to build a New Krypton on is pretty simple, but potentially brilliant.

The idea of Superman (with or without his family) visiting Zod's world in a shaky truce situation sort of way could be really, really cool. What if, like with Doom's Latveria, the people of there are overall happy and prosperous under the rule of Zod? Clark assaulting Zod there leaves him in a very Lexor-like situation where he's the bad guy.

Clark puts Zod back in the zone and you've got you've deprived a wife of her husband, a son of his father, and a plant of its leadership (that it may have been prospering under). This and the obligatory Earth/New Krypton war could be pretty fun if written well.

[Frontier]

That's actually a really cool point that I hadn't even stopped to consider. The very idea of Zod having a "dark Superman family" is super, super goofy, but it's kind of just goofy enough to work really well. Giving him a planet to build a New Krypton on is pretty simple, but potentially brilliant.

The idea of Superman (with or without his family) visiting Zod's world in a shaky truce situation sort of way could be really, really cool. What if, like with Doom's Latveria, the people of there are overall happy and prosperous under the rule of Zod? Clark assaulting Zod there leaves him in a very Lexor-like situation where he's the bad guy.

Clark puts Zod back in the zone and you've got you've deprived a wife of her husband, a son of his father, and a plant of its leadership (that it may have been prospering under). This and the obligatory Earth/New Krypton war could be pretty fun if written well.

I think another interesting question is how Zod is going to form New Krypton given he, Ursa, and Lor-Zod are the only other non-Super Kryptonians around.

Does he ultimatley plan to free the rest of his army from the Phantom Zone? Does he know about Kandor?

It could be interesting if there's a future arc in Supergirl where Zod and Ursa try to tempt Kara into joining their family in restoring Krypton.

[dietrich]

Black Manta will be very well known next year, so no worries.

Yeah but Zod still got Manta beat. There really is zero comparison between the two its just that some people like to argue.

On another note You two sure like to spar with each other. I see you two basically chase each other on these threads simply to antagonise.
Well one you does.

Hilarious.

[Superlad93]

I think another interesting question is how Zod is going to form New Krypton given he, Ursa, and Lor-Zod are the only other non-Super Kryptonians around.

Does he ultimatley plan to free the rest of his army from the Phantom Zone? Does he know about Kandor?

It could be interesting if there's a future arc in Supergirl where Zod and Ursa try to tempt Kara into joining their family in restoring Krypton.

I've actually been giving that some thought. They may go in a route similar to Kirkman's Invincible. In there we see two instances of a viltrumite (the Kryptonians/Saiyans of the universe) taking over a world and making its inhabitants their subjects. In the second instance, the viltermate in question repopulated his race with the inhabitants, but since Lor-Zod her I doubt that's what they'd do.

Might be a combination of the indigenous people and either the Zone inmates or the Kandorians? If it's the inmates then maybe Zod could get on his high horse about how it never seemed to occur to Superman to put up the inmates for parole and give them the second chance that both he and Kara enjoy?

[stephens2177]

Didn't the zod and Ursa stand is on the superman animated series do this exact thing?

[Superlad93]

Didn't the zod and Ursa stand is on the superman animated series do this exact thing?

Yes, they most certainly did. Don't know how that slipped my mind given home much I love the animated series lol Good catch.

If I'm not mistaken, they ended up being lost to a black hole in the end, right? Really fun episode.

My only hope is that Zod and Ursa turn their world into a prosperous utopia that the people are more or less happy with. That would make it a hard for Superman to simply call them wrong are bring the place down. A Latveria situation is my hope.