In your mind, is the real Ben Reilly back?

[MarioHerald]

This is the one thing that I knew would cause sale problems for the new series, regardless of its quality or how well they explore this point in there (eventually).

As a preamble, I enjoyed Clone Conspiracy and I am enjoying Ben Reilly's new series. But the most terrible mistake the former did was to not be absolutely, perfectly, ironclad clear on this being the real, real, REAL Ben at the end of it.

I think it was okay to have some debate and doubts about it during the course of the event. However, leaving the doubt open in the mind of readers once Clone Conspiracy was concluded should have being a big no-no.

Readers have fallen in three camps:

1. Fans who are giving the story the benefit of the doubt on this regard and can look at this Ben as the one of old. A bit changed, but still the good ol' Ben, one or two redemption arcs from becoming Marvel's Red Hood or something good.
   
   
2. Even rarer, those who not, but still find this Ben-27 to be "an interesting new character worth reading about".
   
   
3. Nevertheless, to a not-easily-dismissed number of Ben Reilly fans, the answer will be no. This is not Ben Reilly; not only he acts different (which, while I considered a good point, doesn't help here), the way he was "brought back" (cloning) has been established as a procedure that generates "new" persons. And to them, "if he is not the same ol' Ben, why bother?".

Regardless of interesting philosophical quandaries and questions (are we our memories?) that can and have made in the past good stories, in the Marvel Universe it doesn't matter if you were brought back or recreated from your ashes or clone dust or reincarnated into the body of a far-off descendant, using magic or science, once or 27 times.

Your body is irrelevant.

The soul is everything.

I think it would have gone better had they elaborated a bit further with the idea of the "psychic imprint" the new cloning process was said to use. Or even outright have a magic user like Doctor Strange - or Hummingbird/Aracely - do a check-over of Ben Reilly or one of the other clones and say "Yep, despite the differences, this time they're the real deal for X magic reason."

The starts aligned! Ben Reilly unknowingly placed his lab on a waypoint of mystical energies. Sometimes the psychic imprints do work as intended! One of the scientists was secretly siphoning souls from beyond the Styx (and was the real big bad of the story). Or even just "For some strange mystical reason, some of these clones have the souls of their deceased counterparts. Perhaps the dead person's soul was near, waiting to be reborn to solve unfinished businesses?".

[Mister Mets]

I'd say yes with a caveat. The real Ben Reilly is back, but circumstances largely beyond his control have turned him into a shell of what he once was.

[MarioHerald]

I'd say yes with a caveat. The real Ben Reilly is back, but circumstances largely beyond his control have turned him into a shell of what he once was.

That would be a fourth camp I didn't consider, but definitely (and sadly) exists.

P.D. To clarify, I said "sadly" because I took "shell of what he once was" as you saying "a form so lesser of him that I'm not interested in reading about him". But in hindsight, that's not exactly what you said. (Would love to hear your thoughts on that separate subject).

[Celgress]

A million times no!

[Vixx]

The stories are fine - just tired of all the switchero marketing where they prey on good memories to sell a new charector under an old title, only to fold the book in a year or so.

Ben was Ben - but he can be 3rd printed at will. The next version could have stood or failed on its own - instead it's doomed from the start because it's not Ben

[RD!]

No, not really. Ben would never have done the things he's done as Jackal or in his own series.

I don't mind the series, but, king of like Amazing, it's an interesting AU story.

[theoneandonly]

at least he wasnt brought back as peter and Marys unborn child with all his memories intact making him spider baby the clone baby who shouldn't have been but is. not to mention how creepy it would have been for Mary Jane togive birth to a version of peter. it makes her his mom if they are both considered the same person.

[Vworp Vworp]

Nah. Of course it isn't.

See, here's the thing. First there's Ben's physical 'presence'. At the end of Revelations, Real-Ben was dust... but there were still a few loopholes that could have retconned his death. Yeah, they probably would have been a stretch (and generally involved switching out Real-Ben for a Ben 2.0 at some point before before the rooftop battle finale) but to be fair, they would have been no less plausible than the idea of Jackal finding Ben's dissolved remains and zapping him back to life like a packet of sea monkeys.

Having said that, it's not really Ben's physical being that's the issue here. It's his character. And his personality. Not just in his actions, but in his voice, his thoughts, just the feel of the character. And no part of it feels like Ben. Not angsty on the road Ben, not angry-at the-world-cos-I'm-a-clone-Ben and certainly not I-think-I'm-a-real-boy Ben. And it's more than that.

Good writing thrives on the premise of show don't tell. Which is the exact opposite we got with Ben. We never saw his struggle from the shock of returning to life to through his many deaths and subsequent breakdown. We never saw Ben battle to retain his soul, the very essence of who he was and what it finally took to break him. No, what we got was "Hey, some bad stuff went down and now I'm all homicidal... but in a considerate way."

And in his solo book to date, there's been no sign of Real-Ben, not even deep, deep under the surface of Not-Ben. Because the existence of Real-Ben isn't something so simple and one-dimensional as Not-Ben occasionally not being a total douche. It's about him remembering who he was (beyond a costume), remembering his life, his actions, his friend and enemies. Just any kind of connection between Not-Ben and Real-Ben might have made the former feel at least slightly like the latter. But 5 issues in and we might as well be reading about the zany adventures of Barry Reese, AKA the Magnolia Moth for all this character has in common with Ben Reilly.

[Agent of Wolfram & Hart]

I voted no, this defiantly isn't Ben who I wanted back for all these years, he's a distinct individual just like Ben wasn't Peter Parker. I don't see it happening but they still could turn this around and establish this as the real Ben, but it would require a complete shift of his characterization and possibly revealing the whole dying & resurrecting thing is memory implants that didn't really happen and this is really a switched out Ben after all. Not at all likely, too bad.

[Jokerz79]

I like the idea of Ben being back but find it hard to believe this is Ben. I really loved Ben and was enjoying him and also loved Peter and was happy to see Peter back back then but sad to see Ben die. Ben to me was a guy who accepted what life dealt him and moved forward. He accepted he was a clone and went on the Road. He accepted Peter earned his life when he thought he was the "real" Parker and gave up the Parker identity to forge a new life. So the idea Ben couldn't accept all those deaths and started resurrecting everyone seems untrue to who he was to me.

[Mister Mets]

That would be a fourth camp I didn't consider, but definitely (and sadly) exists.

P.D. To clarify, I said "sadly" because I took "shell of what he once was" as you saying "a form so lesser of him that I'm not interested in reading about him". But in hindsight, that's not exactly what you said. (Would love to hear your thoughts on that separate subject).

I'm not the biggest Ben Reilly fan, so it would usually take a lot for me to be interested in reading about him. I can see why people who liked the character in the Clone Saga don't care for what he's become.

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

This is the one thing that I knew would cause sale problems for the new series, regardless of its quality or how well they explore this point in there (eventually).

As a preamble, I enjoyed Clone Conspiracy and I am enjoying Ben Reilly's new series. But the most terrible mistake the former did was to not be absolutely, perfectly, ironclad clear on this being the real, real, REAL Ben at the end of it.

I think it was okay to have some debate and doubts about it during the course of the event. However, leaving the doubt open in the mind of readers once Clone Conspiracy was concluded should have being a big no-no.

Readers have fallen in three camps:

1. Fans who are giving the story the benefit of the doubt on this regard and can look at this Ben as the one of old. A bit changed, but still the good ol' Ben, one or two redemption arcs from becoming Marvel's Red Hood or something good.
   
   
2. Even rarer, those who not, but still find this Ben-27 to be "an interesting new character worth reading about".
   
   
3. Nevertheless, to a not-easily-dismissed number of Ben Reilly fans, the answer will be no. This is not Ben Reilly; not only he acts different (which, while I considered a good point, doesn't help here), the way he was "brought back" (cloning) has been established as a procedure that generates "new" persons. And to them, "if he is not the same ol' Ben, why bother?".

Regardless of interesting philosophical quandaries and questions (are we our memories?) that can and have made in the past good stories, in the Marvel Universe it doesn't matter if you were brought back or recreated from your ashes or clone dust or reincarnated into the body of a far-off descendant, using magic or science, once or 27 times.

Your body is irrelevant.

The soul is everything.

I think it would have gone better had they elaborated a bit further with the idea of the "psychic imprint" the new cloning process was said to use. Or even outright have a magic user like Doctor Strange - or Hummingbird/Aracely - do a check-over of Ben Reilly or one of the other clones and say "Yep, despite the differences, this time they're the real deal for X magic reason."

The starts aligned! Ben Reilly unknowingly placed his lab on a waypoint of mystical energies. Sometimes the psychic imprints do work as intended! One of the scientists was secretly siphoning souls from beyond the Styx (and was the real big bad of the story). Or even just "For some strange mystical reason, some of these clones have the souls of their deceased counterparts. Perhaps the dead person's soul was near, waiting to be reborn to solve unfinished businesses?".

I guess I'm leaning towards camp 2. Though I think he believes himself to be the real Ben. While I was not a fan of clone conspiracy. I am enjoying the new book. I'd be all for Arcaely and Kaine becoming part of his supporting cast.

[SensationalSean]

Yeah, he's Ben. Just like I consider Doc Ock the original - the body he's in is irrelevant. However, Ben's outlook had been twisted beyond recognition and he's slowly returning to the man he was ... I hope.

[Pav]

To answer the question, "Is the real Ben Reilly back?" it is necessary to define what/who exactly a "Ben Reilly" is.

Ben Reilly is a clone of Peter Parker.

However, there are several clones of Peter Parker. What is it that distinguishes "Ben Reilly" from other clones of Peter?

Ben Reilly lived a specific life after being cloned. Up until the fight at Shea Stadium, Ben Reilly was an exact and perfect duplicate of Peter Parker. However, once Ben lost the fight and started his "Lost Years" he started living a life that distinguished himself from the "real" Peter Parker.

(It must be stated, I think, that despite "knowing" he was the clone, Ben always held out hope that he was the "real Peter Parker" - and it was this small seed of hope for happiness that allowed him to survive emotionally until, at last, he did get to become the Sensational Spider-Man and the blonde, happy Ben Reilly.)

We know, though, that Ben died at the hands of Norman Osborn; for twenty or so years, the character of Ben Reilly did not change - as, y'know, it's pretty hard to change when you're dead.

Ben died.

And yet Ben also lives.

The Ben we have now is still a clone of Peter Parker. He has the memories of Peter Parker, and he also has the memories that were made by the initial version of himself when he separated from Peter's life and started his life on the road. This is Ben because there's no other Ben to have taken his place, to have continued living the life of Ben Reilly.

Consider this: if, during the battle at Shea Stadium, the clone who would be Ben had won and the real Peter Parker would have died, then the clone would've stepped into the life of Peter Parker - because HE WAS Peter Parker; he was exactly the same as the real Peter up to that point. The only reason he had to create a new identity and diverge from his initial identity is because it was already filled!

Likewise, this current clone has all the memories of Ben. Nobody else does. That he has changed his outlook on life doesn't mean he isn't a valid Ben Reilly. I've changed my outlook on life as I've aged. I act differently than I did a decade ago. Don't you? But you're still you - and you're still the same person you have always been despite the vast majority of your cells constantly dying and replacing themselves.

Consider this also: what if the Jackal had made two clones of Ben Reilly instead of just one that he killed over and over? Wouldn't both be as legitimate as the other? Wouldn't both be Ben Reilly? Despite being clones, they would both still be Ben, and would have to figure out what to do about who each of them were going to be. (They could try to share one life/identity but I have doubts such a thing could work for very long!)

This, of course, was the whole point of the 90s Clone Saga! That, despite what one of them being a clone, both Peter and Ben were of equal worth! Being a clone of someone doesn't make you less-than comparatively to the person you're cloned from. You ARE that person.

What this shows is that the question is flawed from the start: instead of asking whether this is THE Ben Reilly, we can ask ourselves, "Is this a Ben Reilly?"

And yes, it most certainly is.

And this is why he is such a fascinating character in the first place: in being a clone of Peter, he both is and isn't Peter; by being a clone of a clone named Ben Reilly, he both is and isn't Ben Reilly.

He inhabits and therefore destroys the binary that we normally utilize when it comes to contrasting one identity from another.

Ben Reilly is dead.

Long live Ben Reilly!

-Pav, who can't wait for the next issue...

[boots]

To answer the question, "Is the real Ben Reilly back?" it is necessary to define what/who exactly a "Ben Reilly" is.

Ben Reilly is a clone of Peter Parker.

However, there are several clones of Peter Parker. What is it that distinguishes "Ben Reilly" from other clones of Peter?

Ben Reilly lived a specific life after being cloned. Up until the fight at Shea Stadium, Ben Reilly was an exact and perfect duplicate of Peter Parker. However, once Ben lost the fight and started his "Lost Years" he started living a life that distinguished himself from the "real" Peter Parker.

(It must be stated, I think, that despite "knowing" he was the clone, Ben always held out hope that he was the "real Peter Parker" - and it was this small seed of hope for happiness that allowed him to survive emotionally until, at last, he did get to become the Sensational Spider-Man and the blonde, happy Ben Reilly.)

We know, though, that Ben died at the hands of Norman Osborn; for twenty or so years, the character of Ben Reilly did not change - as, y'know, it's pretty hard to change when you're dead.

Ben still died.

And yet Ben also lives.

The Ben we have now is still a clone of Peter Parker. He has the memories of Peter Parker, and he also has the memories that were made by the initial version of himself when he separated from Peter's life and started his life on the road. This is Ben because there's no other Ben to have taken his place, to have continued living the life of Ben Reilly.

Consider this: if, during the battle at Shea Stadium, the clone who would be Ben had won and the real Peter Parker would have died, then the clone would've stepped into the life of Peter Parker - because HE WAS Peter Parker; he was exactly the same as the real Peter up to that point. The only reason he had to create a new identity and diverge from his initial identity is because it was already filled!

Likewise, this current clone has all the memories of Ben. Nobody else does. That he has changed his outlook on life doesn't mean he isn't a valid Ben Reilly. I've changed my outlook on life as I've aged. I act differently than I did a decade ago. Don't you? But you're still you - and you're still the same person you have always been despite the vast majority of your cells constantly dying and replacing themselves.

Consider this also: what if the Jackal had made two clones of Ben Reilly instead of just one that he killed over and over? Wouldn't both be as legitimate as the other? Wouldn't both be Ben Reilly? Despite being clones, they would both still be Ben, and would have to figure out what to do about who each of them were going to be.

This, of course, was the whole point of the 90s Clone Saga! That, despite what one of them being clones, both Peter and Ben were of equal worth! Being a clone of someone doesn't make you less than comparatively to the person you're cloned from. You ARE that person.

What this shows is that the question is flawed from the start: instead of asking whether this is THE Ben Reilly, we can ask ourselves, "Is this a Ben Reilly?"

And yes, it most certainly is.

And this is why he is such a fascinating character in the first place: in being a clone of Peter, he both is and isn't Peter; by being a clone of a clone, he both is and isn't Ben Reilly.

He inhabits and therefore destroys the binary that we normally utilize when it comes to contrasting one identity from another.

Ben Reilly is dead.

Long live Ben Reilly!

-Pav, who can't wait for the next issue...

pretty much this. as far as the universe is concerned, this is ben reilly. i take what the earlier poster said about souls, but had that ever been clarified in cases of ressurection? has marvel been consistent with one rule? i kinda doubt it. even a case like psylocke/kwannon was described as a mindswap not a soulswap



though i think there are two questions here: is this technically ben reilly? and is this your ben reilly?