Is Norman boring now that he no longer knows that Peter is Spider-Man?

[Pav]

He wasn't a stand-up guy, but the level of evil he has now has been retconned in over time.

He's more of a cartoon character now than he was in the 60s. (And he tried to take out Spider-Man by tricking him into making a movie back then.)

I actually kind of feel the opposite. I feels more like a realistic person to me at this point: his instability makes sense, his motives make sense, etc - whereas in the past he just wanted to be a crime kingpin despite already being a successful businessman and scientist.

I do agree that Warren Ellis wrote him beautifully in Thunderbolts, and I think that characterization will carry the character far into the future.

That being said, he is kinda boring now. It's not that his current storylines aren't interesting; it's more so that, before, the rivalry between him and Peter was so bitter and personal and intense. I've generally enjoyed the Norman stories we've gotten since those Thunderbolts issues, but yeah - something feels missing.

Honestly, I think the Norman-Harry relationship needs to become more front-and-center.

-Pav, whose "nostalgia" Osborn is post-CS / pre-reboot but has read plenty of older stuff...

[Tuck]

I actually kind of feel the opposite. I feels more like a realistic person to me at this point: his instability makes sense, his motives make sense, etc - whereas in the past he just wanted to be a crime kingpin despite already being a successful businessman and scientist.

Pre-death, the personas were separate. To the point that Peter actively covered for Norman. The stories were less sophisticated back then, so I won't argue as to the quality of execution.

And I can deal with a Hyde persona that has ridiculous goals. The problem for me is that none of the Goblins besides Roderick have motivations that make any sense. The serum is used on personalities the way kryptonite is used on Superman; completely at the writers' discretion, and with no consistency. It's a get-out-of-explaining-behavior-free card.

Harry made sense. That was all fractured psyche and split personality.

Phil is immune to the corrupting influence of the serum . . . until he isn't . . . because . . .

Carlie is able to resist the serum no one else has been able to . . . because why?

And nothing about Lily makes a lick of sense. (But I think that was a case of hiding the reveal so well that they never actually laid the groundwork. Still a problem though.)

[CrimsonEchidna]

I don't think so. Like, I'd still say American Son was the best storyline of the Brand New Day era.

I would also say he hasn't been written as well as in the past since late Dark Reign.

That's kind of the thing too, since Dark Reign, Norman has been pushed more to the background, with Otto Octavius being given the primary focus as Peter's arch-villain.

[Venomous Mask]

Having him forget Spider-Man's identity was good for a while. Revenge of the Green Goblin and Return of the Goblin were amazing stories, but they showed just how heavy things had gotten between the two to the extent that it was impossible to have a regular Spider-Man/Green Goblin fight: everything was highly personal and references to Gwen were in every other panel. By now, however, the "clean slate" Norman has overstayed his welcome. We've seen a return to him trying to be a crime boss in Goblin War, resurrecting Osborn's very first motive to be the Goblin in the first place, but that's over now. Since the Dr. Strange spell doesn't work anymore, I think it's time for him to know again.

[WeirdSpider]

And nothing about Lily makes a lick of sense. (But I think that was a case of hiding the reveal so well that they never actually laid the groundwork. Still a problem though.)

I really don't think that the Lily is Menace reveal was hidden. It seemed pretty obvious to me that she was gonna be Menace due to the way that Marvel was playing up Harry as a possible suspect.

[Pav]

Pre-death, the personas were separate. To the point that Peter actively covered for Norman. The stories were less sophisticated back then, so I won't argue as to the quality of execution.

And I can deal with a Hyde persona that has ridiculous goals. The problem for me is that none of the Goblins besides Roderick have motivations that make any sense. The serum is used on personalities the way kryptonite is used on Superman; completely at the writers' discretion, and with no consistency. It's a get-out-of-explaining-behavior-free card.

Harry made sense. That was all fractured psyche and split personality.

Phil is immune to the corrupting influence of the serum . . . until he isn't . . . because . . .

Carlie is able to resist the serum no one else has been able to . . . because why?

And nothing about Lily makes a lick of sense. (But I think that was a case of hiding the reveal so well that they never actually laid the groundwork. Still a problem though.)

That's multiple writers doing work on the same characters over the years for you. I find it easy to head-canon that kind of stuff.

I guess how a super-serum affecting two characters differently doesn't bother me as much as inconsistent motivation in a character. I really liked Phil as the Hobgoblin, but his turn to the dark side wasn't executed very well at all.

I blame Loners.

-Pav, who re-read Phil's GG series earlier this summer...

[Tuck]

I really don't think that the Lily is Menace reveal was hidden. It seemed pretty obvious to me that she was gonna be Menace due to the way that Marvel was playing up Harry as a possible suspect.

You're looking at it with an eye for understanding how publishers do these things. There's no groundwork to establish anything in the story. Lily isn't present when Menace shows up, but that's functional. There isn't a hint of a personality change or her daddy issues until after the reveal.

That's multiple writers doing work on the same characters over the years for you. I find it easy to head-canon that kind of stuff.

Fair enough. But you have to figure something so major in the books would be curated a bit better . . . certainly when the same editor is on the book.

I guess how a super-serum affecting two characters differently doesn't bother me as much as inconsistent motivation in a character.

I guess we all give and dig in at different places. I'd just like some ground rules for how the world works. If anything can happen, then nothing really holds weight. It's manufacturing causation where there's only a sequence of events. If that makes any sense. (Having trouble finding a better way to put it.)

[Pav]

I guess we all give and dig in at different places. I'd just like some ground rules for how the world works. If anything can happen, then nothing really holds weight. It's manufacturing causation where there's only a sequence of events. If that makes any sense. (Having trouble finding a better way to put it.)

Oh, I totally get you - and I agree with you as a general principle. It would be nice if there was sort of a standard model for how goblin formula affects people, but then I consider that our own "normal" and real medications affect people differently. And even with the differences, there still are some standard reactions from the goblin serum.

Personally? I'd love to be the writer who gets to finally tackle the symbiotes in a meaningful manner.

Are you reading Ultimates right now, Tuck? That's got some heavy "ground rules of the MU" stuff for sure!

-Pav, who loved the Infinaut...

[Venomous Mask]

Oh, I totally get you - and I agree with you as a general principle. It would be nice if there was sort of a standard model for how goblin formula affects people, but then I consider that our own "normal" and real medications affect people differently. And even with the differences, there still are some standard reactions from the goblin serum.

Besides the powers it gives, I always assumed that it amplified certain aspects of an individual's personality, usually the negative ones; Norman became more ruthless and Kingsley became more paranoid. For Osborn, there might have also been some latent mental issues already that were triggered by the serum.

Personally? I'd love to be the writer who gets to finally tackle the symbiotes in a meaningful manner.

I'd like to see the relationship between the Klyntar and the 'corrupted' symbiotes, like the ones in Planet of the Symbiotes and in the flashback in the Cosmic Carnage storyline. How is there society organized, how do they choose which planets to attack, what religion do they have? For several years, I had the idea of a Marvel event where Carnage became the ruler of a symbiote empire and temporarily conquered large portions of the MU.

[Michael Watkins]

if a character has been entertaining, it's really hard to call them boring. maybe he's being written unimaginatively.

[Scarlet Spider-Man]

Yes.

Norman and Venom should both know that Peter is Spider-Man. It makes both of their characters much more menacing and interesting.

[DieHard200904]

Norman became like a dog on a chain without the ability to break it. It became obvious as to the limits of how far he could reach in harming Peter Parker, personally. Even when he knew, it reached the point of not feeling the stakes to him because I was at the point of either 1, knowing he no longer could do any damage that lasted, because MJ and Aunt May were guaranteed to come back to life if Norman killed them and b, those moments of him bragging to Peter just no longer felt menacing, they felt stupid. I wished that chameleon became the new villain who messed around with the fact that Peter Parker , but I guess the choice for the new guy was Otto Octavius instead, and he also "raped" Peter Parker (Superior Spider-Man )

[DieHard200904]

I don't think it is a necessarily bad thing as the secret I'd exposed to arch villain issue has been run to death and moreover leads to serious competency issues on the part of both hero and villain.the hero is always ata disadvantage against the particular villain while the particular villain seems a dunderhead who can't catch him or his loved ones unguarded and end his threat once and for all. If the villain tries to exploit the knowledge for his own ends we get the convoluted and ridiculous storylines like hush and the one where kingpin exposes matt as daredevil which are then wiped out retroactively through plot devices.

Yeah, pretty much, even with the knowledge the most competent thing Norman did was kill the baby and throw Gwen off a bridge. What else could he do? He could never kill May or MJ in the true sense, so the limit of his threat was laid bare.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Norman should relearn the secret again. The fact he has proven to still be a deadly and manipulative bastard is testament to the strength of the character. Heck, the guy has given Spider-man a run for his money in recent times, and he achieved that without having the Goblin serum in his system. He has just been a regular guy. He also managed to outsmart Otto during Superior and even Otto himself couldn't beat him.

When he knew the secret, Norman was as threatening as it comes. He didn't need to kill MJ or Aunt May. Norman delighted in twisting the knife. Peter knew Norman could strike at him. He just didn't know where or when. The paranoia of looking over ones shoulder like that would be endless torture and torment. Enough to drive most insane. That's where Norman shines.

Otto is all about getting one up on Spider-man, as he views him as his inferior. He could never understand or admit he was beaten by a teenager. With Otto, he always has to be the smartest guy in the room and his actions are about proving it. With Norman, his grudge is purely personal. He doesn't strive to prove himself better than Peter. All Norman cares about is destroying Peter mentally and physically. Totally stamping him out of existence. Laughing as he does it.

[WeirdSpider]

Rereading some old comics and I found this scene from Spectacular Spider-Man Issue 254.

As I said before Norman really was a better villain when he knew cause he could push Peter's buttons way more.