View Poll Results: Who is the second most important character in the Batman universe?

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  • Commissioner Gordon

    26 17.11%
  • The Joker

    13 8.55%
  • Robin

    53 34.87%
  • Alfred

    56 36.84%
  • Other

    4 2.63%
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  1. #91
    Astonishing Member failo.legendkiller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    That's more a point in favour of Robin not being integral if something so simple as which Robin is a deciding factor.

    Alfred is important or not
    Jim etc are all important supporting part of the Batman regardless of changes.
    Again, Damian is a totally different "Robin" he doesn't embody what Robin stood for decades. He is the son of batman, not the sideckick, not the apprentice, not the partner.
    This diffrence is crucial for me.
    I like Bruce mentroing and patrolling with a Robin, not struggling to be a good father.
    The dynamic Duo, Batman & Robin is the myth.

  2. #92
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by failo.legendkiller View Post
    Again, Damian is a totally different "Robin" he doesn't embody what Robin stood for decades. He is the son of batman, not the sideckick, not the apprentice, not the partner.
    This diffrence is crucial for me.
    I like Bruce mentoring and patrolling with a Robin, not struggling to be a good father.
    The dynamic Duo, Batman & Robin is the myth.
    He is the sidekick and Batman and Robin was a father son relationship going back 80yrs with Dick Grayson. Bruce's 1st son, the 1st Robin. The one who started it. The one whose legacy all the others are carrying on
    The 1st kid hat Bruce took in and made family.
    The kid who lost his folks, was in danger of going down a dark path however by becoming Robin and joining batman's fight was able to turn that dark path into positive direction

    That is why Robin was created. That is what Robin is. That is what Robin embodies. It's what ir was for Dick [the one who defined it and gave it meaning] that's what it was for Jason and that's what it was for Damian.

    It was different for Tim but that's an outlier were the function of Robin/what Robin embodies was spinned to facilitate Tim's intro.

    Damian was mentored by batman [2 of them] he is his partner and he patrolled with batman. Both Bruce and Dick.

    In fact the Batman and robin title was introduced with Damian's arrival when dc brought the Dynamic duo back together again since Robin went solo in the 90's.

    Do you even comic bro?

  3. #93
    Astonishing Member failo.legendkiller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    He is the sidekick and Batman and Robin was a father son relationship going back 80yrs with Dick Grayson. Bruce's 1st son, the 1st Robin. The one who started it. The one whose legacy all the others are carrying on
    The 1st kid hat Bruce took in and made family.
    The kid who lost his folks, was in danger of going down a dark path however by becoming Robin and joining batman's fight was able to turn that dark path into positive direction

    That is why Robin was created. That is what Robin is. That is what Robin embodies. It's what ir was for Dick [the one who defined it and gave it meaning] that's what it was for Jason and that's what it was for Damian.

    It was different for Tim but that's an outlier were the function of Robin/what Robin embodies was spinned to facilitate Tim's intro.

    Damian was mentored by batman [2 of them] he is his partner and he patrolled with batman. Both Bruce and Dick.

    In fact the Batman and robin title was introduced with Damian's arrival when dc brought the Dynamic duo back together again since Robin went solo in the 90's.

    Do you even comic bro?
    You keep to ignore the difference between biological child and adopted.
    It is so Damian signature that it was written in his first book as a caption of the title: Robin, son of batman. Not to mention Super Sons.
    I can't remember Dick, Jason or Tim introduced to the world as Batman's child.

    The Robin character has always had to prove his worth, learn, try to earn Bruce's esteem and the role he was offered (not by birthright) in a mentor/assistant relationship that only later, over time, came close to that of father/son.
    This is what Robin has always been up to Damian, "I want to be like you" not "I am like you".
    With Damian, things are radical different. He is there by birtright, Bruce didn't choose him.
    Damian himself does nothing but mention it out loud: I am the son of the bat and grandson of Ra's.

    Everything changes again when Damian is Dick's Robin. The dynamic returns to be free from descendants ties, even if here the role of Batman is the light one and that of Robin is the dark one.
    This is very interesting, Dick & Damian were great, and maybe this is the only thing we agree. But Dick is not Batman anymore.

    As for the dynamic duo, Tim wasn't the first Robin to have solo adventures, Dick has had a ton too.
    Anyway you could find them both patrolling around with Bruce continuously.

    I notice that has become icreasingly rare to find a story with Batman (Bruce) & Robin (Damian) patrolling Gotham as an usual day in the office.

    Batman & Robin is a title ended for years, which for the most part, also had Robin absent.

    I don't read Batman and Tec regularly, but I enquire about the contents, and I can't recognize Batman & Robin as a duo anymore. I did with Dick, Jason and Tim.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by failo.legendkiller View Post
    You keep to ignore the difference between biological child and adopted.
    It is so Damian signature that it was written in his first book as a caption of the title: Robin, son of batman. Not to mention Super Sons.
    I can't remember Dick, Jason or Tim introduced to the world as Batman's child.

    The Robin character has always had to prove his worth, learn, try to earn Bruce's esteem and the role he was offered (not by birthright) in a mentor/assistant relationship that only later, over time, came close to that of father/son.
    This is what Robin has always been up to Damian, "I want to be like you" not "I am like you".
    This. The dynamics between Batman and Robin was special in a sense that it was a father and son relationship between 2 people who dont share the same bloodline.

  5. #95
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by failo.legendkiller View Post
    You keep to ignore the difference between biological child and adopted.
    It is so Damian signature that it was written in his first book as a caption of the title: Robin, son of batman. Not to mention Super Sons.
    I can't remember Dick, Jason or Tim introduced to the world as Batman's child.

    The Robin character has always had to prove his worth, learn, try to earn Bruce's esteem and the role he was offered (not by birthright) in a mentor/assistant relationship that only later, over time, came close to that of father/son.
    This is what Robin has always been up to Damian, "I want to be like you" not "I am like you".
    With Damian, things are radical different. He is there by birtright, Bruce didn't choose him.
    Damian himself does nothing but mention it out loud: I am the son of the bat and grandson of Ra's.

    Everything changes again when Damian is Dick's Robin. The dynamic returns to be free from descendants ties, even if here the role of Batman is the light one and that of Robin is the dark one.
    This is very interesting, Dick & Damian were great, and maybe this is the only thing we agree. But Dick is not Batman anymore.

    As for the dynamic duo, Tim wasn't the first Robin to have solo adventures, Dick has had a ton too.
    Anyway you could find them both patrolling around with Bruce continuously.

    I notice that has become icreasingly rare to find a story with Batman (Bruce) & Robin (Damian) patrolling Gotham as an usual day in the office.

    Batman & Robin is a title ended for years, which for the most part, also had Robin absent.

    I don't read Batman and Tec regularly, but I enquire about the contents, and I can't recognize Batman & Robin as a duo anymore. I did with Dick, Jason and Tim.
    The sharing DNA isn't that important. A son is a son. Bruce was a father decades before Damian. Damian's DNA is irrelevant. Bruce's relationship and bond with Dick is far stronger than Bruce and Damian likewise Dick and Damian have a stronger relationship than Bruce and Damian.

    Bruce sent Damian back, Dick made him a part of the family. Family is much more than blood.

    Dick and Jason were family before they were Robin. Bruce didn't take them in because he wanted them as sidekicks.

    Robin isn't and has never been Damian's birthright. Batman didn't create Robin Dick did. It belongs to him not Batman so how could it ever be Damian's birthright?

    Batman is what Damian claims is his Birthright not Robin. The panel where he says I want to like you he is dressed up as the bat. Dick might have taken up the role of Damian's parental figure and mentor. He might have been the one who made Damian a part of the Batman family but he isn't Damian's father.

    Robin for Damian has always been about Redemption. Following the examples of the Bats and trying to ensure innocent people doesn't have to suffer. Changing for the better. In his words Robin is the best thing he has ever done.

    Damian gave his life twice as Robin to save others and the world. He IS like them.

    Damian proved his worth and worked for Robin. He earned Batman's trust.
    He proved his worth by leaving the LOA, making the decision that he wanted to use his skills to help the world. working as a solo hero in Gotham before BFTC. He proved his worth helping the Batfamily, working with them and even saving Tim Drake from death before he was given the Robin mantle.

    After Bruce came back he saw the good work Dick and Damian have been doing. He saw the change in Damian, recognised his hardwork which was why he made the decision to have the duo carry on protecting Gotham.

    When Dick went back to spyral, Bruce choose to have Damian as his Robin.

    Damian learnt from two Batmen, proved his worth to both. More important he proved himself to Dick grayson, earned his trust which is why Dick let him carry on as Robin.

    Jason was the last Robin to be a regular in the Batman books. Since the 90's Robin has only had guest appearances in Bat books [until B&R]

    DC made the decision to launch Tim's Robin as an independent hero and less of a sidekick.

    Bruce showed up in the Robin title and the duo were part of cross overs but the dynamic duo hasn't been a thing in the Batman titles since the 90's.

    batman and robin as a duo patrolling together can be seen in multiple titles since the start of Rebirth most recently Batman Black and white [which even gives you a not damian option]

    or you could check out the new dynamic Duo Batman and Harley [the more profitable duo]

    [I kinda already guessed you don't actually follow the books closely]

    To get back to the thread topic since DC themselves made the choice to separate the dynamic duo decades ago that indicates that he/she isn't integral to modern Batman.

    Or to put it better Robin is integral. The original Robin Dick Grayson is an integral part of the mythos. He is Batman's legacy. A shining example of why Batman fights. His vow manifest. Robin as a concept is problematic. the Robins don't reflect well on batman

    Jason died came back as a bad guy. Not so bad guy anymore but has issues with Batman

    Tim - Batman took a middle class kid with good prospects and a normal life and dresses him up to fight bad guys without his parent consent. Also places undue pressure on the kid by making him responsible for ensuring that Batman doesn't go too far. Why because the kid came to his home and told him to. Lost his Spleen, was presumed dead

    Steph - recruited by Bats as a way to win back his last teen sidekick. Ends up dead.

    Damian - Batman errant sperm comes back still work in progress. Died 3 times

    Dick Grayson is the exception. The kid Batman saved who became Robin and then went on to become a well balanced independent hero with his own group and city.

    he is a testament to Bruce both as a hero and as a father. The Robin that makes Robin a positive concept [he also saved a young kid with the power of Robin]

    Robin Dick is integral
    Last edited by dietrich; 05-07-2021 at 07:36 AM.

  6. #96
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    This. The dynamics between Batman and Robin was special in a sense that it was a father and son relationship between 2 people who dont share the same bloodline.
    Dick and Damian
    Alfred and Bruce
    Dick and Bruce.

    Found family is one of the best aspects of Batman. The kid who lost his family collects others and makes them family.
    Family is more than blood.

  7. #97
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Damian - Batman errant sperm comes back still work in progress. Died 3 times
    He's died 3 times now?! I've lost track, I thought he died the once, and Batman brought him back. Why is Jason seemingly more known as the Robin that died, if Damian's done it 2 more times than him.

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Found family is one of the best aspects of Batman. The kid who lost his family collects others and makes them family.
    Family is more than blood.
    Well Damian and Kate are both blood relatives, it doesn't make them any less his family, I would hope.

    Although, of course, we don't mention Alice (supervillain sometimes), rarely Jacob (supervillain sometimes), and Bette is ignored.

    Surely there is room for both blood and non-blood family.
    Last edited by Bat-Meal; 05-07-2021 at 10:50 PM.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    He's died 3 times now?! I've lost track, I thought he died the once, and Batman brought him back. Why is Jason seemingly more known as the Robin that died, if Damian's done it 2 more times than him.
    Jason died and came back as a changed character. Damian died but never learns.

  9. #99
    Invincible Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    He's died 3 times now?! I've lost track, I thought he died the once, and Batman brought him back. Why is Jason seemingly more known as the Robin that died, if Damian's done it 2 more times than him.
    Jason died and came back as a changed character. Damian died but never learns.
    Jason was the first Robin to die and stay dead for a while, with no initial plans to return him to life. And when they did decide to bring him back, it was a bizarre fluke, the "Superboy-Prime punch" that altered reality, bringing Jason back to life but still buried in a sealed coffin six feet under. (I guess nobody bothered to embalm his body, either?)

    And don't forget, Jason was killed by the Joker, which added to the seriousness of his (initial) death.

  10. #100
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    Jason died and came back as a changed character. Damian died but never learns.
    Must be a Wayne thing. Bruce has had how many Robins die on the job and yet the man hasn't learnt. Honestly I'm starting to suspect that Bruce might be an Agent of MANBLA or something

  11. #101
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    He's died 3 times now?! I've lost track, I thought he died the once, and Batman brought him back. Why is Jason seemingly more known as the Robin that died, if Damian's done it 2 more times than him.



    Well Damian and Kate are both blood relatives, it doesn't make them any less his family, I would hope.

    Although, of course, we don't mention Alice (supervillain sometimes), rarely Jacob (supervillain sometimes), and Bette is ignored.

    Surely there is room for both blood and non-blood family.
    There is room for both. Although Damian and Kate are sought of found family. Did Kate and Bruce interact much growing up?
    Wanye/Kane game nights, Sunday dinners, BBQ's?

  12. #102
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    There is room for both. Although Damian and Kate are sought of found family. Did Kate and Bruce interact much growing up?
    Wanye/Kane game nights, Sunday dinners, BBQ's?
    The Bruce and Kate relationship is messy - mostly because they weren't originally related and didn't even know each other until Andreyko turned them into cousins. Then Tynion went full-blast with them being family. It makes a lot of Batwoman's original solo weird IMO because neither of them knew each other and the tension and distrust between them reflected it. Revisiting it after the family retcon, for example - makes the start where Bruce is researching Kate to learn about her and identify her as Batwoman...err, strange.

    Anyway, don't know about BBQ's, but they went to funerals together.





    Last edited by Bat-Meal; 05-08-2021 at 07:13 PM. Reason: Found better links

  13. #103
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    The Bruce and Kate relationship is messy - mostly because they weren't originally related and didn't even know each other until Andreyko turned them into cousins. Then Tynion went full-blast with them being family. It makes a lot of Batwoman's original solo weird IMO because neither of them knew each other and the tension and distrust between them reflected it. Revisiting it after the family retcon, for example - makes the start where Bruce is researching Kate to learn about her and identify her as Batwoman...err, strange.

    Anyway, don't know about BBQ's, but they went to funerals together.





    And thus the BadAss cousins who punch crime in the face was born.

  14. #104
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    And thus the BadAss cousins who punch crime in the face was born.
    Yeah, it's fun. It was probably was the easiest way to incorporate her into the Bat-Family.

    Interestingly though, it's not what the original team of her first solo wanted. Apparently they turned-down every invite to the Bat-Family events because they wanted to keep Kate separate. This is why she wasn't included in events such as the 'Court of Owls' and other such Bat-Family stories during that time.


    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Jason was the first Robin to die and stay dead for a while, with no initial plans to return him to life. And when they did decide to bring him back, it was a bizarre fluke, the "Superboy-Prime punch" that altered reality, bringing Jason back to life but still buried in a sealed coffin six feet under. (I guess nobody bothered to embalm his body, either?)

    And don't forget, Jason was killed by the Joker, which added to the seriousness of his (initial) death.
    Makes me wonder again how long it will be until Alfred returns. Or Leslie for that matter, she'll be back too. Maybe they can return to life at the same time.

  15. #105
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Jason was the first Robin to die and stay dead for a while, with no initial plans to return him to life. And when they did decide to bring him back, it was a bizarre fluke, the "Superboy-Prime punch" that altered reality, bringing Jason back to life but still buried in a sealed coffin six feet under. (I guess nobody bothered to embalm his body, either?)

    And don't forget, Jason was killed by the Joker, which added to the seriousness of his (initial) death.
    He wasn't just brought back to life. He was brought back to the same state he was exactly about when he died. You can see him changing in the panels from a pretty fixed-for-show corpse to the severely wounded state he was then. His dead was literally retconned in universe material-wise (not spiritually I can guess. He was dead and feels like he was dead).

    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    Makes me wonder again how long it will be until Alfred returns. Or Leslie for that matter, she'll be back too. Maybe they can return to life at the same time.
    She's back already, I think. spoilers:
    Apparently she wasn't dead to begin with.
    end of spoilers
    Last edited by Zaresh; 05-08-2021 at 08:36 PM.
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