View Poll Results: Who is the second most important character in the Batman universe?

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  • Commissioner Gordon

    26 16.46%
  • The Joker

    14 8.86%
  • Robin

    55 34.81%
  • Alfred

    59 37.34%
  • Other

    4 2.53%
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  1. #16
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    My first thought when I saw the thread title was Alfred, but when I read it, Gordon convinced me.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by t hedge coke View Post
    I think the gun is important, there, but it doesn't much matter to most Batman stories who fired it.
    Well, I feel strongly that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Without the Mugger the gun's just a lump of metal collecting dust. Certain writers with have put way too much importance on the weapon (and on Bruce's supposed gun phobia).

  3. #18

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    I think that the people arguing Alfred's importance are forgetting that in spite of his in universe importance he arguably lacks the same publishing and media significance as Gordon and Robin.

    Gordon was featured with Batman in his first appearance. Robin fulfils a Watson like role in terms of both narrative and public reception. Robin also helped to greatly increase Batman's popularity after his introduction. However I am approaching this from an extra textual perspective and of we are going purely from a contemporary textual perspective than Alfred is definitely very high but still probably below Thomas and Martha Wayne and Joe Chill but slightly above Dick and Gordon.
    “Nothing is harder to understand than a symbolic work. A symbol always transcends the one who makes use of it and makes him say in reality more than he is aware of expressing.”
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  4. #19
    Extraordinary Member t hedge coke's Avatar
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    We've seen many successful takes on Batman without a Robin. We've seen many successful Batman stories without a Robin even mentioned.

    There aren't that many successful Batman takes without an Alfred or a Gordon.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by t hedge coke View Post
    We've seen many successful takes on Batman without a Robin. We've seen many successful Batman stories without a Robin even mentioned.

    There aren't that many successful Batman takes without an Alfred or a Gordon.
    ^This.

    If I'd have to do a ranking, Gordon would come first, followed VERY closely by Alfred...and then comes Robin and the Joker (not sure who's first in that lot though).

  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member t hedge coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Well, I feel strongly that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Without the Mugger the gun's just a lump of metal collecting dust. Certain writers with have put way too much importance on the weapon (and on Bruce's supposed gun phobia).
    I mostly agree, I just think that who pulls the trigger matters more in-story, matters more to Batman, than it does to most readers.
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  7. #22
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    Hmmm. I'd say Gordon was the most integral - remove him from the mythos, rather than an individual story, and it cannot sustain itself. The bat-signal, the optimism for Gotham's future/civillians, the idea of fundamental decency amongst the corruption.... Like finding like. Take that away, and you can't tell Batman Stories. You're telling stories about a dark-clad avenger.


    Second is Robin, if only because he's The First. Certainly pre-reboot, and make explicit by the Morrison run, the story of Batman is the story of a lonely person who brings a close family around himself. "The first truth of Batman is, I was never alone." Dick Grayson is distilled proof that Batman Makes Things Better, and is how he is so that other people don't have to be.



    And third - I'd argue a distant third - is Alfred. I love him, but remove his expositionary purpose and you can tell almost all Batman stories without him. He's much-loved and welcome, but I don't think he's integral except, perhaps, in an Origin Story.

  8. #23
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    Gordon is without a doubt, #1. Alfred may have started out later than Robin, but I feel like he's far surpassed him in importance in the Batman mythos. Robin comes third, and everyone else can fight for #4.
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  9. #24
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    I thought there would be more votes for the Joker - just because you can certainly have just a Joker/Batman comic without anyone else and still have it be distinguishable from any other franchise.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by son of booyah View Post
    I thought there would be more votes for the Joker - just because you can certainly have just a Joker/Batman comic without anyone else and still have it be distinguishable from any other franchise.
    This is kind of why I voted for him. You can have several great Batman stories without any of these characters, but I think the Joker's success as a villain is one of the driving forces behind Batman's popularity. His popularity may even eclipse the hero himself.

    There's also that old "a hero is defined by their nemesis," which I don't entirely agree with, but is worth consideration.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by son of booyah View Post
    I thought there would be more votes for the Joker - just because you can certainly have just a Joker/Batman comic without anyone else and still have it be distinguishable from any other franchise.
    You can also have a Batman/the maffia story and have it be distinguishable from any other franchise.

    Remove the Joker and nothing changes except that somebody else gets to be the #1 villain.

  12. #27
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    Gordon is just the guy that makes the phone calls or turns the light on.
    Joker is just the logical response to Batman's actions.
    Robin is just the inevitable apprentice anyone at the top level in their field attracts.
    Joe Chill just happened to be the guy that exposed him to violence and is replaceable by any other street level thug.
    Alfred is buffer that allows it to work. Without Alfred's assistance Bruce is dead or in prison within one month of starting. The rest can be replaced but the butler needs to stay.
    It's all just an opinion. Stop taking me so damn seriously.

  13. #28
    Extraordinary Member t hedge coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    Gordon is just the guy that makes the phone calls or turns the light on.
    Joker is just the logical response to Batman's actions.
    Robin is just the inevitable apprentice anyone at the top level in their field attracts.
    Joe Chill just happened to be the guy that exposed him to violence and is replaceable by any other street level thug.
    Alfred is buffer that allows it to work. Without Alfred's assistance Bruce is dead or in prison within one month of starting. The rest can be replaced but the butler needs to stay.
    We're all very lucky there's no chance of me ever writing a Batman comic. Somehow, despite all things, I'd remember the above post and be forced to caption "Commissioner James Gordon. He turns the light on." Or, have him flip a lightswitch every time he's on-panel.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    Joe Chill just happened to be the guy that exposed him to violence and is replaceable by any other street level thug.
    The guy is still essential, regardles what his name is or if anybody even knows what he's called. Without him, nothing happens.
    Joe Chill isn't essential. The Mugger is.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claude View Post
    Hmmm. I'd say Gordon was the most integral - remove him from the mythos, rather than an individual story, and it cannot sustain itself. The bat-signal, the optimism for Gotham's future/civillians, the idea of fundamental decency amongst the corruption.... Like finding like. Take that away, and you can't tell Batman Stories. You're telling stories about a dark-clad avenger.
    Agree with you totally.

    Indeed, Batman WAS essentially just a dark-clad avenger when he first debuted. The first step towards him becoming something more, in MOST versions of the mythos, was when he met Jim Gordon and started his 'partnership' with him.

    There's a beautiful dialogue by Alfred about this in one of the 'Zero Year' issues, where Alfred talks about how Bruce needs to start trusting people and working with them rather than just focusing on fighting a hopeless one-man war, because otherwise, he's not a hero but just some vengeful kid punishing Gotham for having made him watch his parents die helplessly. The context of this was a discussion Bruce and Alfred were having about whether Batman should enlist Gordon as an ally or not. Indeed, we see Batman acting as more of a hero now that he is working alongside Gordon in 'Zero Year', as compared to early on in the story. And in 'Year One' too, the real end of Batman's origin story is his impending meeting with Jim Gordon, which marks his transformation from vigilante to hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Claude View Post
    Second is Robin, if only because he's The First. Certainly pre-reboot, and make explicit by the Morrison run, the story of Batman is the story of a lonely person who brings a close family around himself. "The first truth of Batman is, I was never alone." Dick Grayson is distilled proof that Batman Makes Things Better, and is how he is so that other people don't have to be.
    I agree to some extent. Certainly there was a time when Batman and Robin were inseperable. But after BTAS, the Burton and Nolan films, the Arkham games, and loads of comics from the late 1980's onwards, its kinda difficult to believe that its impossible for the Batman mythos to be sustained without Robin. True, Robin (both Dick Grayson, and the legacy he started) enriches the mythos, but I wouldn't say he's THE most integral part anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Claude View Post
    And third - I'd argue a distant third - is Alfred. I love him, but remove his expositionary purpose and you can tell almost all Batman stories without him. He's much-loved and welcome, but I don't think he's integral except, perhaps, in an Origin Story.
    The fact that he's much-loved and welcome has over time made him intergral to the mythos, IMO more so than Robin.

    The trouble with Robin is that while Dick may have been the first kid sidekick, today he's just one more among dozens of kid sidekicks, with nothing really unique about him. And as Nightwing, he's just another crime-fighter/superhero. Nothing wrong with that...but he's basically another (lighter? more human?) take on Batman in a sense. Whereas Alfred is a totally different kind of character...a mentor/father-figure as well as a butler and crime-fighting partner who also serves as Batman's conscience.

    Many superheroes can have a Robin or Nightwing of their own, but not many have their own Alfred...is what I'm trying to say.

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