View Poll Results: Who is the second most important character in the Batman universe?

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  • Commissioner Gordon

    26 16.46%
  • The Joker

    14 8.86%
  • Robin

    55 34.81%
  • Alfred

    59 37.34%
  • Other

    4 2.53%
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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    The guy is still essential, regardles what his name is or if anybody even knows what he's called. Without him, nothing happens.
    Joe Chill isn't essential. The Mugger is.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    Well, yes, unles Batman time-travels back to inspire his own creation of course. Mind you, the Mugger was still essential to that story.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Well, yes, unles Batman time-travels back to inspire his own creation of course. Mind you, the Mugger was still essential to that story.
    The thread is about supporting characters though, not who contributed the most to batman's creation.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    The trouble with Robin is that while Dick may have been the first kid sidekick, today he's just one more among dozens of kid sidekicks, with nothing really unique about him. And as Nightwing, he's just another crime-fighter/superhero. Nothing wrong with that...but he's basically another (lighter? more human?) take on Batman in a sense. Whereas Alfred is a totally different kind of character...a mentor/father-figure as well as a butler and crime-fighting partner who also serves as Batman's conscience.

    Many superheroes can have a Robin or Nightwing of their own, but not many have their own Alfred...is what I'm trying to say.
    I hear this. As far as a 'team-mate' character Alfred is fairly unique.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    The thread is about supporting characters though, not who contributed the most to batman's creation.
    I suppose it is.

    Droppping the Mugger...

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    Gordon is just the guy that makes the phone calls or turns the light on.
    Joker is just the logical response to Batman's actions.
    Robin is just the inevitable apprentice anyone at the top level in their field attracts.
    Joe Chill just happened to be the guy that exposed him to violence and is replaceable by any other street level thug.
    Alfred is buffer that allows it to work. Without Alfred's assistance Bruce is dead or in prison within one month of starting. The rest can be replaced but the butler needs to stay.
    I dunno...he seemed to do just fine in the 4 years before Alfred even existed.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member The Kid's Avatar
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    Voted Gordon. Created along with Batman and playing a big role since

  8. #38
    Inquisitive Dzetoun's Avatar
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    I don't know that there is one character that is the most integral. Rather, there is a constellation of characters that allow the mythos to have stability and endurance. I would agree that over any length of time at all, that is over any given period of story arcs, the mythos requires Alfred and Gordon to be the mythos as we understand it. However, that situation is not stable over the long, or probably even the medium, haul. If you were to start out with just the three, Batman, Gordon, and Alfred, in the modern environment Robin and Batgirl would appear quite quickly. Understand I am talking about the mythos as we currently understand and experience it, not as it may have existed at some point in the past. The three men by themselves simply lack some essential alchemy that makes for permanence, perhaps a sense of the future and thus the sense of hope that comes with it. Once the two younger characters appear, however, you have a stable constellation that can continue on pretty much indefinitely with no real need for additions. So, I think if you want the mythos as we understand it to exist in an enduring fashion, all of them are pretty much required.
    Last edited by Dzetoun; 07-13-2014 at 08:43 PM.

  9. #39
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doctormistermaster View Post
    I think that the people arguing Alfred's importance are forgetting that in spite of his in universe importance he arguably lacks the same publishing and media significance as Gordon and Robin.
    I don't really care. I'm voting for who makes Batman the character I know and love and for me that's Alfred. (though on another day I might have voted Gordon).

    1 - Alfred
    2 - Gordon
    3 - Joker
    4 - Robin

  10. #40
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Alfred and Gordon (or at least their archetypes) are tied.

    Alfred - Batman needs someone in Wayne Manor/the cave to talk to. Otherwise an issue is little but exposition, either with Bruce talking aloud to himself or a constant inner monologue. This role can be played by Alfred, Oracle, a Robin or even Leslie Thompkins but is essential to a Batman comic. Alfred fills this perfectly as he rarely leaves.

    Gordon - Batman must deal with the Police or there's be a terrible disconnect between his world and reality, so he needs contact with someone therein. This can be Gordon, Akins, Bullock or a recurring officer (like Montoya's original role), but Gordon as Police Commissioner and trusted ally is perfect.

    Batman can function without any other character appearing for a year save an antagonist. Alfred and Gordon don't have to be in every issue, but it's rare that their parts aren't played by someone.
    Last edited by exile001; 07-14-2014 at 07:10 AM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBatman View Post
    I dunno...he seemed to do just fine in the 4 years before Alfred even existed.
    True. But this thread deals with the perception of the character in the contemporary context. And IMO, in the 'modern' incarnation of the Batman mythos, Alfred is arguably a more integral supporting character than Robin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dzetoun View Post
    I don't know that there is one character that is the most integral. Rather, there is a constellation of characters that allow the mythos to have stability and endurance. I would agree that over any length of time at all, that is over any given period of story arcs, the mythos requires Alfred and Gordon to be the mythos as we understand it. However, that situation is not stable over the long, or probably even the medium, haul. If you were to start out with just the three, Batman, Gordon, and Alfred, in the modern environment Robin and Batgirl would appear quite quickly. Understand I am talking about the mythos as we currently understand and experience it, not as it may have existed at some point in the past. The three men by themselves simply lack some essential alchemy that makes for permanence, perhaps a sense of the future and thus the sense of hope that comes with it. Once the two younger characters appear, however, you have a stable constellation that can continue on pretty much indefinitely with no real need for additions. So, I think if you want the mythos as we understand it to exist in an enduring fashion, all of them are pretty much required.
    Excellent post!

    Yes I agree that the mythos have evolved over time and the significance of Alfred and Gordon, as compared to Robin, is a contemporary reading of the mythos. Robin has gradually become an 'optional extra' as opposed to being the irreplaceable co-protagonist of Batman stories.

    But I also agree with you're point that in the long-term, the younger sidekicks/vigilantes, are needed to 'complete the mixture', to extend you're analogy. Which is why even Chris Nolan, with his strict 'no-Robin' policy, introduced the character of John Blake in TDKR who essentially embodies the same 'hope for the future' that Robin/Nightwing typically represents. Long-term, the Batman universe wouldn't feel complete without the presence of either Robin, or some other character occupying a similar place (be it Batgirl, John Blake or even Katana). But IMO, Robin is still secondary in importance as compared to Gordon and Alfred, today.

  12. #42
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBatman View Post
    I dunno...he seemed to do just fine in the 4 years before Alfred even existed.
    And he's gotten along perfectly for the 71 years Alfred has existed. Do the Batman kills people one next...

  13. #43
    Uncanny Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Much as I like Jim Gordon, Alfred has truly grown into Batman's most important support-system over the years.

  14. #44
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    1.Alfred. HE IS HERE SINCE THE BEGIN. First ally.
    2.Joker. The worst enemy, who showed how good is batman.
    3.Robin. The first companion..
    4.Gordon. Biggest ally that doesn´t know batman identity.
    Last edited by adrikito; 09-17-2018 at 09:20 AM.

  15. #45
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    I certainly believe they've been expanded upon to the tenth and in all the world-building and what-not over the years, made more integral (in ways both naturally, organically and cool as well as cheesy, clunky and shoe-horned). But ultimately I always feel like Alfred and Gordon sort of serve the same role, with Gordon edging in as slightly more vital just because he's been there since the first issue (as brilliantly recontextualized and full-circled at the end of Morrison's run). But ultimately all they do is give us some like exposition - BATMAN shows up and Gordon gives him policey details about crimes that BATMAN then needs to go tackle. He then has funny interactions with BATMAN's civilian alter ego, none the wiser, during the day. Over they years clever writers wonder what the political and inter-police nature of a Commissioner helping a psycho costume vigilante might be, and thus, people do some crafty work trying to explain the "Rules" of Gotham City. Badda-bing. But he's mostly just a functionary to witness Batman, assist Batman, give Batman some exposition, and occasionally be either a damsel in distress figure, get his hands dirty in his own cases here and there to bolster his rep next to Batman's, or even to occasionally be a hindrance ... to Batman.

    Meanwhile Alfred came about for effectively the same reasons. Somebody who spends as much time Batmanning as BATMAN needs somebody taking care of the homestead. If he has a mansion, he should probably have a butler. Oh organically and naturally let's let this butler be the one who cared for him for all those years since we know he was a young lad when his parents died. Oh logic though! What are the rules of this world? How can this butler be such a polymath bad-ass caretaker for somebody who is himself a polymath bad-ass? Gotta invent that military background (which in the decades following WWII were always pretty realistic for any character to have). But ultimately he serves a similar function to Gordon, just "at home" instead of "at work". I mean, neverminding that Batman works from a home office.

    Even a simple, pared-down, low-key Batman story "almost" requires using Alfred and/or Gordon. I'd say they're equal in that regard, and thematically important because they're also older and more experienced, if less daring and bold than Batman, and give that sense of Father Figure that comes with his lost father. (Mother figure stuff has always been a lot harder for Batman storytellers, but also in-canon, Bruce as a character, to deal with - which you know, in a nutshell explains ALL of his bad relationship decisions.)

    It's always been interesting to me that other characters invented to reflect back important societal notions upon Batman haven't been elevated as much. We see a bit of it with Lucius Fox. Somebody asked "who runs the company while Batman is out Batmanning?" and we got a solid character. Who then inherited a lot of "where does he get his wonderful toys?" concepts. Vicki Vale had a really long run coming at things from the journalism side of it, and still gets into the books doing just that every once in a while. She gets lost in the shuffle though because she was a damsel, romantic interest, and those are always doomed for Batman not just relationship-wise, but like ... getting good Batman Stories out of them. Somebody had to ask the question of "Well, where does Bruce go when he's feeling a bit emotionally drained or sad? Does he NOT HAVE a replacement Mother Figure?" and that's where Leslie Thompkins comes into the picture - another indicator of why she too needs to be depicted as somewhat older than Batman.

    Gordon. Alfred. Then a lesser tier of tradespeople that serve similar but micro-functions, reflecting Batman's Batman-ness back at him in the story, in the city, in the theme.

    But they're all still just Mrs. Hudson, aren't they? LeStrade. Here's your tea. Here's the crime. Have at it boys.

    ROBIN is the partner. The Watson. Whoever the Robin is at any given time "should be" Batman's most important character, and current Robin is his biological son, so I think there can't be any doubt that Robin SHOULD BE the most integral character. Of course Dick is the first, best Robin so there's that too. But trying to be fair and noting that all those characters have to be graduated and gain some sort of independence and have their "falling out" periods with Batman and so on and so forth, I figure the right all-encompassing answer is that it's Robin.
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