secret empire 7 spoilers

[jackolover]

The Cool Thatguy said. He shot Secret Empire minions in Round Robin revenge. He fought an AIM offshoot in Matt Fraction's run, IIRC. He's an equal opportunity murderer.

Thanks for the incidents, so this shows Frank has no limits to who he goes after, but it might just be that those individuals he shot were doing criminal acts, and he wasn't wholesale trying to go after organisations? Frank could still feel resonance to Hydra in this SE instance the way Steve Rogers does it.

[jackolover]

Michael Watkins said. here's another thought. I posted that image because this is what they used to get away with. this is what jewish creators put on a cover. why is it only now too risqué?

I suppose it's because Hydra Cap is brazenly propaganda. I think it's a fear that doing Hydra Cap softens us up for the real thing.

[jackolover]

Prof. Warren said. They'd be more miffed if it were played farcically, I would think.

But we don't know what they'd think so it's best not to assume anything on their behalf.

You keep bringing up the similarities between Hydra and the Nazis. Similarities that no one is denying.

They are only similar, however, and the differences between them do matter within the story.

This is a story about fascism. More importantly, it's a story about fighting fascism and how wrong fascism is.

It's not an endorsement of it in any way and Steve is not going to be rewarded for what he's done.

As such, I don't see any problem with telling this story. If it offends some people, oh well. Not everything is for everyone.

I think Secret Empire is an endorsement of Hydras methods in print. The American people in the story agree with what's going on in this Event, and that's a scary prospect. That's making it look like Americans endorse this sort of behaviour, not just Steve Rogers.

Maybe it's the cool aid in the water, but some honestly are grateful for having a job now, they didn't have before.

[tliscord]

Well it sure seems like most people couldn't spot faschism if it stood before them and asked to be elected. Certainly seems that way in my country. You should hear some of the rhetoric expressed in my local pub. Nazis on the other hand are still pointed at as evil by almost everyone I have ever met (almost).

Haha, ouch! Except you have better ale over there. You'd think that would get everyone hugging each other. For us just sturm und drang. I agree, accessing those old Howler comics, Strucker was Nazi through and through. I believe Marvel began splitting hairs on this later perhaps with the movies.

[Prof. Warren]

[COLOR="#800080"]I think Secret Empire is an endorsement of Hydras methods in print. The American people in the story agree with what's going on in this Event, and that's a scary prospect. That's making it look like Americans endorse this sort of behaviour, not just Steve Rogers.

In any society there's going to be some people who do support fascism, under whatever name it goes by. That's just a fact. That's why being vigilant against it is so important.

But just because some people agree with something or have a certain ideology, it doesn't mean that the society as a whole shares those sentiments.

And everything about Hydra's portrayal in SE is about how bad it is so, no, it's not an endorsement in any way, shape or form.

[jackolover]

JKtheMac said. That's the crazy thing about the subtext if this Nazi criticism. It suggests that using actual Nazis would somehow be more offensive than what they are doing. The main reason I reiterate that this is not a story about Nazis is nothing whatsoever to do with upsetting people. The point is that the story would have much less meaning and subtext if Steve was a Nazi.

This isn't about the clear impossibility of convincing modern America to be Nazi, this is about the very real danger of popularist politicians that push a protofascist ideology. The closeness to faschism of standing on a platform of reinvigorating the economy through state control, closing borders, undermining liberal progressive thought, rewriting history, fabricating news, calling people unamerican if they oppose you, insisting that everyone get behind them and put aside their differences, running a country as a corporation with strong central control.

None of these are specifically Nazi, (at least one is opposed to Nazi ideology) and none of these have to be fascist, but many of these are necessary for faschism to thrive. This story isn't a direct allegory, it is an analogy. It looks at contemporary politics and points out how close we are to regimes like the highly popular one in Fashist Italy. How the techniques and rhetoric of modern popularist politics could be used to sleepwalk us back into the 1920s given a different leader.

That sounds very plausible. But it's the Wolf in sheeps clothing they are using (Hydra Cap) that is implementing the "sleepwalking into the 1920's" that is disturbing. If it's a Trump character, we can see the flaw in him, but using a respected individual to carry the propaganda was so insidious.

[jackolover]

Depends on what "Steve Rogers" personality comes back after SE. If it's the good Steve, he'll just see his manipulation as just that - and not harp too deeply on what some Cosmic Cube did with his body. If anything, I think the good Steve Rogers will meditate on how to safeguard himself against this sort of thing happening to him again. How do you safeguard your identity, from this sort of identity theft? I'm thinking an Emma Frost mind trap that never allows mind control again, like she did with Sentry?

You make it sound like he killed her on purpose. The scene presents it as that the blow was meant for Miles and Natasha got between them, pushing Miles out of the way, taking a lethal blow as a result (kind of a pointless death though considering that, with the combination of his spider sense and agility, Miles should have been able to dodge the blow).

yes it does give of that vibe and also somewhat echoes injustice overtones.

Wow, I never thought of this, but now that you mention it, this does remind me of Battleworld, but worse.

Doom was essentially doing the best he could with very little building material. Plus, he's Doom, so you knew it was bound to fail. Even Doom seemed to know that. I'm not sure Steve is aware enough of his own weaknesses to understand that.

Of course he knew! Had Storm and Kitty been around, he likely wouldn't have been as able to bring Emma Frost in to create New Tian, with the Unity Squad around he would have had several more high-profile and very public Avengers to stand against him. This isn't even getting into the fact the Manhattan is basically superhero Mecca and the base of operations for many of them. Their home was basically taken off the map before anyone could do anything about it, making rallying the heroes that much harder.

If Sharon Carter says in this book Steve is a Nazi Red Skull, and Hydra are oppressing everyone in America, then "if it looks like duck, and quacks like a duck", I say. To hell with semantics.

Franks first appearance was he wanted to take pot shots at Spider-Man. Doesn't sound like Frank thinks super heroes are all that, to be "in" with them.

Isn't it ironic that in CWI Frank saves Spider-Man from super villains?

Okay. I was sceptical, but Steve seemed to know everything going on in that ambush plan, so he probably did know about the super villains.

As for the Battleworld analogy to Secret Empire, if we are going that way, Hydra Cap could be seen as a God Cap, and Steve Rogers completely overturning the Earth political system to recreate his own "Domains", in America and Europe, so far, echos some of the themes Doom manufactured in his own World too. I am feeling a little uncomfortable writing this.

Nat's intervention was, ironically, more to protect Steve from Miles. Nat jumped in because she believed that Miles could kill Steve, not that he was defenseless against him. She didn't want Miles to have that blood on his hands. And while Steve didn't mean for his blow to kill Nat, the lethal force of it shows how capable Steve is of handling himself.

Frank's relationship to the superhero community has always been a complex one. He exists outside of them but yet he's also one of them. They alternately tolerate and condemn him and the opposite is also true.

Yes, as you say, the story has laid out how different Hydra and Nazis actually are.

And one of the reasons for that is not just to make Hydra more palatable for the sake of the story, distancing Hydra from Nazism, but to show how easily fascism can be accepted. People have always made the assumption "it couldn't happen here" when looking back on the rise of the Nazi movement. There has always been the assumption that, unlike the German people, we in the US would recognize it, stand against it, and never allow such a thing to take a foothold in our nation.

But that's not really the case. If you put the right face on it, if the right societal conditions exist to make enough of the population crave it (unemployment, outrage about immigration, fears of terrorism, etc.), and if the rest of the population is too distracted or indifferent to see it coming, fascism can absolutely triumph. It won't be under a Nazi flag. It'll be something else. But it'll be its own form of fascism just the same. And it will only be afterwards that people will ask themselves - "How did that happen?" "Why didn't we see it coming?"

Except the problem is that they're not different enough, what with the Hydra youth, destroying entire cities to punish resistance and, again, concentration camps.

And frankly, that wouldn't be a problem either, if it all weren't speaheaded by a character created by Jewish writers, to punch Nazis before Nazi punching was awesome.

He shot Secret Empire minions in Round Robin revenge. He fought an AIM offshoot in Matt Fraction's run, IIRC. He's an equal opportunity murderer



Well, in his defense, he is being written by Spencer. Who isn't an idiot under his pen?

I do like the suggestion of comparing a Hydra Cap run America, to a Punisher run America.

Although I do wonder if Steve knew Zemo used super villain to lure heroes to Manhattan? Would Steve have been okay with that?

But the argument is insidious. It is all about running down Marvel on some weird concept that using Nazi symbolism is somehow beyond the pale. Marvel have bent over backwards to show that the relationship between Hydra and WW2 Nazis is much more nuanced and complex than Hydra being Nazis.

By just dismissing this nuance the whole story is lost. The complex analogy highlighting the danger of populist political movements, and how America was not immune to these influences in the early 20th Century, gets totally lost because we see Nazis as either cartoon villains or evil incarnate. Both of these views are exaggerated and potentially dangerous perspectives on history.

In any society there's going to be some people who do support fascism, under whatever name it goes by. That's just a fact. That's why being vigilant against it is so important.

But just because some people agree with something or have a certain ideology, it doesn't mean that the society as a whole shares those sentiments.

And everything about Hydra's portrayal in SE is about how bad it is so, no, it's not an endorsement in any way, shape or form.

I know what you mean, but it can't help but carry the message of endorsement. It's like getting Cap to portray ISIS in an Event and American citizens go along with allowing it going on in their country. It's an outrage after 9/11.

(I don't understand why "reply with quotes" is loading my post like this!)

[The Cool Thatguy]

Again, Steve's not a Nazi. I know your whole criticism of this storyline hinges on the belief that he is, but he isn't.

If you're not willing to engage in what the story that you're criticizing actually is, rather than the distorted caricature of it that you want to insist on, then why bother?

That's not my only criticism, actually, just the most annoying one. So guy who does Nazi things leading an organization founded by one Nazi, led by another Nazi, isn't a Nazi. Even if his council has a Nazi on it.

I feel compelled to point out the delusion thinking.

And Steve doesn't feel bad about what he's doing at all. He believes in his cause. A key facet of this story is that he sincerely believes what he's doing is for a greater good.

Except that Spencer's trying to have it both ways, in Cap looking angsty in his own book, and acts as if simply allowing Vegas to be destroyed doesn't make him responsible for it.

And no, he doesn't slide into it. His history was manipulated by the cosmic cube. So we have a Steve Rogers who has always, in his mind, been a servant of Hydra.

Yeah, and that's pretty damn boring. At no point does he question it, he just runs with it.

Also, as pretty much every superhero comic ever made boils down to a battle between good and evil, in which good ultimately triumphs, every summary in its simplest form tends to amounts to "Duh". The difference is how the stakes are portrayed, how victory is achieved, and what the personal cost of each battle is.

I don't recall both Civil Wars being that. Even crossovers that are just good vs. evil can be well written with proper effort.

This isn't that.

No. Being on comic book message boards, nothing about what people think surprises me.

Yeah, I know the feeling. You've taught it to me

[Prof. Warren]

That's not my only criticism, actually, just the most annoying one. So guy who does Nazi things leading an organization founded by one Nazi, led by another Nazi, isn't a Nazi. Even if his council has a Nazi on it.

I feel compelled to point out the delusion thinking.

And I feel compelled to point out the lack of nuance in your thinking.

Also, you're very hung up on the fact that Hydra is very similar to Nazis, as though any symbolism that echoes Nazism should be verboten in a story about fascism.

Except that Spencer's trying to have it both ways, in Cap looking angsty in his own book, and acts as if simply allowing Vegas to be destroyed doesn't make him responsible for it.

Cap, like any leader, bears the weight of the world on his shoulders. So of course he's going to look "angsty" at times. That isn't Spencer trying to have it "both ways."

Any leader can do what they feel needs to be done without regrets but yet still feel the weight of consequences for their hard choices.

Yeah, and that's pretty damn boring. At no point does he question it, he just runs with it.

Why would he question it? As far as he knows, this is his reality. If he were simply brainwashed, this wouldn't be the same story.

Yeah, I know the feeling. You've taught it to me

*Sigh* If only you'd pick up critical reading skills from me as well. Wouldn't that be nice?

[Prof. Warren]

I know what you mean, but it can't help but carry the message of endorsement. It's like getting Cap to portray ISIS in an Event and American citizens go along with allowing it going on in their country. It's an outrage after 9/11.

(I don't understand why "reply with quotes" is loading my post like this!)

It's not an endorsement. If anyone reads Secret Empire and walks away with the impression that Hydra was right, they're just idiots.

If they get the impression that fascism is very insidious and many everyday people can be conned into going along with it under the right circumstances, then that would be correct.

[dragonmp93]

He's certainly acting like a fascist. And he is one in this story.

But a key part of why Cap is Hydra here and not a Nazi is if you're going to tell a story about fascism winning in modern times, it has to come under another flag.

When people look back at history and the rise of the Nazi Party, they're very confident in believing "that couldn't happen here" or that it could never come around again because we know what to look for now. We'd see it coming a mile away, people tell themselves. But fascism isn't going to come back wearing the same colors and waving the same flag. It's going to come back in a way that appeals to people in the same way that Nazism appealed to many Germans, as a means to empower people who feel helpless and scared. And it's going to come back in a way where a lot of people can tell themselves, "oh, no - this is different" when it really is basically the same terrible thing but under a different banner.

The scary thing about fascism is that it creeps up on you. And its face is always more familiar than you want to believe.

So Steve is Mussollini instead of Hitler; big difference.

[dragonmp93]

It's not an endorsement. If anyone reads Secret Empire and walks away with the impression that Hydra was right, they're just idiots.

If they get the impression that fascism is very insidious and many everyday people can be conned into going along with it under the right circumstances, then that would be correct.

Well, given that the normal humans are known to be huge @$!#=%/\ in the Marvel Universe; folllowing Hydra is not much of a stretch considering everything we already saw them doing.

[Valamist]

It's not an endorsement. If anyone reads Secret Empire and walks away with the impression that Hydra was right, they're just idiots.

If they get the impression that fascism is very insidious and many everyday people can be conned into going along with it under the right circumstances, then that would be correct.

I completely agree. There is nothing about this story or Nick's Cap books which supports or endorses the ideas of Hydra/fascism. As you said, it shows how insidious and easy it can seep into the world. That is one of the reasons why I really like this event.

I think it was both horrifying and darkly hilarious when people where taking to twitter etc and burning copies of the FCD Secret Empire issue, in a protest against its 'supposed' fascist message... yeah, because burning a book you disagree with is the perfect anti-fascist message...

Well, given that the normal humans are known to be huge @$!#=%/\ in the Marvel Universe; folllowing Hydra is not much of a stretch considering everything we already saw them doing.

That is true. Event after event, it seems like the public in MU are just... idiots. I am a little surprised that half the heroes and the entire mutant race just do not give up at this point!

[Batman#22]

After reading the first seven issues, I am now proud to say that this is the best Marvel event we've had in years!

I love how everyone is now flawed to the point that there morally compromised and is trying to do what they feel is right even though everyone else doesn't agree. I thought the fight with Punisher and the Black Widow was intense. I was surprised that The Hulk is already been resurrected. Hopefully it means we'll get back the real Wolverine. I was devastated when Black Widow was killed by Captain America. Even though I usually think the ends justify the means when killing Bad Guys, I actually like The Wasp's prep talk to Miles about not killing Cap. Also, is anyone else surprised that Mile's is outshining Peter Parker in this event? I hope Captain America get's punished in the end. I'm sick of him being the law of the Avengers and punishing his people, I want to see him go to jail for penance. Brain Washing be damned.

[The Cool Thatguy]

And I feel compelled to point out the lack of nuance in your thinking

Also, you're very hung up on the fact that Hydra is very similar to Nazis, as though any symbolism that echoes Nazism should be verboten in a story about fascism.

Citing obscure canon while ignoring the larger story isn't nuance, it's reaching. there's a difference.

A Nazi organization doing nazi things makes them nazi. Nazi things are not subtle

Cap, like any leader, bears the weight of the world on his shoulders. So of course he's going to look "angsty" at times. That isn't Spencer trying to have it "both ways."

Yes he is.

"Cap's leading a Nazi organization with a nazi at his side but he's not a nazi, honest! He didn't order the attack on Vegas, no totes not responsible

Any leader can do what they feel needs to be done without regrets but yet still feel the weight of consequences for their hard choices.

Why would he question it? As far as he knows, this is his reality. If he were simply brainwashed, this wouldn't be the same story.

Because just because he's not Batman doesn't make him an idiot.