I miss the "weird avenger of the dark, this avenger of evil, The Batman!"

[SamGuthrie1977]

Could this also be generational as well? Like you tend to like the Batman that you grew up with or became an adult with? And then that version carries with you.

I say that because this thread definitely is naming more writers of the past vs the usual threads here on CBR that tends to favor much later artists; especially Morrison or Synder.

Nostalgia probably plays some role in it, yeah. That would explain my love of Starlin, Aparo, and Breyfogle.

However, I didn't grow up on Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams' Batman. They were before my time -- but I still love their interpretation of Batman and his world too. I also didn't grow up on the campy Silver Age Batman stuff either, but I really like it too.

For me, it's the overly dark tone, the all black costumes, and Batman being a jerk. It just doesn't appeal to me for whatever reason.

Morrison wasn't enough fantasy for you? LOL!

What I mean is that a hyper-realistic take on Batman doesn't do it for me. This is why I didn't care for the Nolan films at all. I like a bit fantasy in Batman's world. For example, I think Gotham needs to look like a fictional city -- not Chicago in broad daylight.

[Jim Kelly]

I think in terms of Batman himself, the best iteration is that one from 1970 - 1975. Except for his team-ups with other super-heroes (in B&B, JLA), that Batman is on his own and there isn't this big Batman family taking attention away from him. The stories are more grounded, being usually detective stories, with the costumed crooks appearing in moderation.

In terms of art, it's accessible to the general comic book audience, because it's in that adventure-realism style. Obviously, the comics were written for the mass market, but if the comics were being done for today's market, there could be more development of the story. O'Neil and Adams were fan favourites, but that didn't count for much in the early 1970s and the comics had to change for economic reasons, as they chased after a fickle mass market.

While I liked the early 1970s Batman, he wasn't my all-time personal favourite--so I'm not saying this out of my own nostalgia. I just think in terms of writing, art and concept of the character, that Batman was the most accessible to the largest number of readers, while still retaining the core concepts of the Batman. If you strip down Batman to what he should be as a character, this is him.

But, in terms of my personal nostalgia, I also prefer the 1970s Batman to exist, because he didn't need to be rebooted to become that character. You could still believe that all the previous stories had happened--with Aunt Harriet, Dick Grayson, Kathy Kane, Betty Kane, Barbara Gordon, Tony Gordon--even Bat-Mite. So you didn't have to give up loving those stories to also have the Darknight Detective.

It would be hard now to get back to that stripped down detective Batman, without throwing out the accumulation of Robins and Bat-buddies and convoluted continuity. And it's not in DC's interest--because they make more money by spinning off a legion of Batman-related characters, rather than concentrating all attention on Bruce Wayne himself. That's why the early 1970s Batman gave way to the expanded family Batman--why have one avenger of the night, when you can have multipe Gotham guardians.

[Nick Miller]

Yeah if you are reading batman for 40 years, thats a long time for the character not to change.

For me i find the 70’s batman that i have looked at, unreadable.

And forget about seeing him as a detective. Do you know how hard it is to write a detective story? Even a simple one? Writers dont have the time, or the inclination, or the talent.

[MajorHoy]

. . . And forget about seeing him as a detective. Do you know how hard it is to write a detective story? Even a simple one? Writers dont have the time, or the inclination, or the talent.

But, unfortunately, when I had been reading Batman prior to giving up on it, it seemed he was rarely (if ever) using his actual brain to figure out anything! It was either relying on all his kewl gadgets or being four steps behind having a clue as to what was really going on.

And if it's a case of the current writers not having "the time, or the inclination, or the talent" to write Batman as an intelligent, thinking character, isn't that a perfect argument in favor of finding writers who can?!?

[K Nikk]

But, unfortunately, when I had been reading Batman prior to giving up on it, it seemed he was rarely (if ever) using his actual brain to figure out anything! It was either relying on all his kewl gadgets or being four steps behind having a clue as to what was really going on.

And if it's a case of the current writers not having "the time, or the inclination, or the talent" to write Batman as an intelligent, thinking character, isn't that a perfect argument in favor of finding writers who can?!?

It's one thing to write an intelligent, thinking character. It's another to write a detective story that keeps ALL the audience guessing, but still is fair-play (the evidence was there, and the protagonist makes reasonable conclusions). People too often call on detective stories or mysteries failures if they guess early, but with all the detective stories that have been done it actually does get very hard to keep both the characters and the audience blind. So yes, I think true detective stories are hard to write especially when the audience will criticize foreshadowing as a failure.

[MajorHoy]

It's one thing to write an intelligent, thinking character. It's another to write a detective story that keeps ALL the audience guessing, but still is fair-play (the evidence was there, and the protagonist makes reasonable conclusions). People too often call on detective stories or mysteries failures if they guess early, but with all the detective stories that have been done it actually does get very hard to keep both the characters and the audience blind. So yes, I think true detective stories are hard to write especially when the audience will criticize foreshadowing as a failure.

But, again, how many of us are asking for every story arc to be as complex or complicated as an entire detective novel? Back in the day, when Batman actually was somewhat seriously referred to as a detective, every story didn't have to be that complicated. These days, though, he doesn't seem to know what the word "logic" means!

[K Nikk]

But, again, how many of us are asking for every story arc to be as complex or complicated as an entire detective novel? Back in the day, when Batman actually was somewhat seriously referred to as a detective, every story didn't have to be that complicated. These days, though, he doesn't seem to know what the word "logic" means!

I think King attempted that in #38, but people complained it was too easy to figure out. The Bane arc was about thinking ahead and getting people into the right places at the right time to get the outcome he wanted (therefore more logic than gadgets), but some people didn't like that because it seemed too convenient or they didn't see it coming or it didn't show Batman using gadgets or being Bat-god enough (and of course some people just don't like King's writing, so it doesn't matter what he tries). I bet batman writers get more immediate positive feedback from gadget and action based stories than ones they try to think out ahead so I can't blame them for not trying it more.

Maybe after King's run a writer will come on to do a good 6 month detective story (12 issues seems good for a nice long mystery arc) who is specialized specifically in that genre. Might feel slow issue to issue if less action and character-building storylines but would pull together really nicely for trades.

[gregpersons]

I'm with you a hundred percent, man. I loathed Snyder's stuff and enjoyed King's Gotham arc. After that, it was pretty awful and I dropped it with the proposal issue, which I also thought was a terrible decision. I also hated the Monster Men arc. The far better use of those ideas is Matt Wagner's Batman And The Monster Men.

You're missing out! I skipped Monster Men but IMO, King's arc really gets going with I Am Suicide and has been really strong since. He's given Batman's inner life a fresher take than we've seen since pre-52.

[Jim Kelly]

A good mystery is one that an attentive reader can figure out. If there's no way the reader could possibly put together whodunnit, then the mystery writer isn't playing fair. But that kind of mystery can't be stretched over six months. That gives a reader too much time to think about the mystery and figure it out, so by the time the answer is revealed it isn't that amazing. Moreover, with social media, it's too easy for the solution to be spoiled.

Mysteries have to be done in one.

That doesn't preclude a long arc--so long as each chapter in the arc has a mini-mystery that is solved by the end of that chapter.

[Doctor Bifrost]

A good mystery is one that an attentive reader can figure out. If there's no way the reader could possibly put together whodunnit, then the mystery writer isn't playing fair. But that kind of mystery can't be stretched over six months. That gives a reader too much time to think about the mystery and figure it out, so by the time the answer is revealed it isn't that amazing. Moreover, with social media, it's too easy for the solution to be spoiled.

Mysteries have to be done in one.

That doesn't preclude a long arc--so long as each chapter in the arc has a mini-mystery that is solved by the end of that chapter.

I've been seeing tons of TV minseries lately that are individual mysteries stretched out over six or eight or ten episodes. Admittedly they tend to be once a week instead of once a month, but on the other hand they have larger audiences than comic books, and the audiences are all over social media discussing every detail. Some of them are pretty good.

But I wasn't particularly talking about each issue, or each arc, being a "mystery." (Some can be, of course.) I was more talking about emphasizing those talents of Batman's related to his detective training (as understood in the pulp tradition) - spotting clues, understanding forensic evidence, using disguises. That kind of thing.

[MajorHoy]

But I wasn't particularly talking about each issue, or each arc, being a "mystery." (Some can be, of course.) I was more talking about emphasizing those talents of Batman's related to his detective training (as understood in the pulp tradition) - spotting clues, understanding forensic evidence, using disguises. That kind of thing.

This is what I mean as well: Batman figuring things out without the aid of all his CSI-type of equipment and using his brain and logic so he isn't always five steps behind.
A very popular TV show was Columbo ("one more thing, . . . ") which didn't present a mystery the viewers always had to figure out: they saw what happened at the beginning of the episode. The enjoyment was in seeing how Detective Columbo (played by Peter Falk) finally was able to figure out what really happened and proving who did it.

[RedWhiteAndBlueSupes]

Sort of like how Snyder and the current Batman writers under Rebirth are succeeding in alienating / shutting out fans of classic old-school Batman?

Pretty much. I think the ops idea of going back to a more traditional batman status quo is what is needed.