Do you see DC bringing back Bart and Kon or sticking with NuWally and Jon?

[BohemiaDrinker]

So every time Geoff J writes a poor comic it's somebody else's fault?

Isn't the reality for last 20 years been that he's so important to DC that he's written who he's wanted to, how he's wanted to, when he's wanted to.

If he had been unhappy at any point...he could have hopped over to Marvel.

Not really.

Johns made a name for himself with Flash and JSA, upped his profile with Teen Titans and exploded with Green Lantern.

Then he went a loooooooooooong period as a company man, salvaging whatever the company told him to, sometimes writing 3 or 4 monthlies at once - and his writing suffered for it. He is now at a weird position, where he's at the same time above and bellow Didio, but before that he almost ascended to the editorial ranks at least twice (first was when DC was planning sort of an Archictets initiative, along with Waid, Morrison and, I think, Rucka (but maybe it was Winnick) back in the days of Inifnite Crisis, and the second one was during the Brightest Day era).

Johns has executed a lot of mandates, make no mistake.

[JackDaw]

Not really.


Johns has executed a lot of mandates, make no mistake.

If he has done then he's done it because he's feels that's the best way forward...rather than he had little choice or power within the company.

The reality is surely that for long periods Geoff and Grant M have been absolutely critical to DC's success in selling commercial super hero comics. No other DC writer in last 25 years comes anyway near in key importance in that time.

Nobody thinks Grant writes comics under mandate...he "owns" the comics he writes good, bad, or indifferent.

But often when Geoff writes some dodgy characterisation/ whatever a "company mandate" defence is trotted out.

I don't really "buy it". Geoff has...of course...written some really good comics, but he does tend to write with some fairly fixed themes strongly in mind...I don't really think his poorer efforts have all that much to do with outside interference.

[BohemiaDrinker]

But often when Geoff writes some dodgy characterisation/ whatever a "company mandate" defence is trotted out.

I don't really "buy it". Geoff has...of course...written some really good comics, but he does tend to write with some fairly fixed themes strongly in mind...I don't really think his poorer efforts have all that much to do with outside interference.

I'm not completely disagreeing. Lord knows I have my fair share of criticisms towards Johns weak stuff.... hell, I started ranting about Flash:Rebirth back in 2009, and I haven't finished yet. He has lots of weak spots as a writer, but we can also not ignore that not everything bad under his name was not his decision.

Grant is not only another matter, but a very atypical writer, that we can't measure by the same ruler of most other guys.

[JackDaw]

A bit of a tangent...well a lot of a tangent..but triggered off by various posts in this thread. (a fair number from BohemiaD!)

Imagine Geoff J was called into the Dan's office and told something like: "We need to call Bart A Kid Flash, and start making him act a bit more responsibly".

Would that necessarily be a bad thing? (Bearing in mind you might want to develop as main Flash in far future.)

Couldn't some writers have brought about that change in a way that made it seem natural and organic? And leave readers thinking...yes, that's natural way people mature, but it's still Bart, he's still the same guy "deep down".

And yes..I'm suggesting that some writers would do that sort of assignment better than Geoff. For example, given their relative strengths/ weaknesses, I think Peter David would do that particular task better.

[Assam]

Couldn't some writers have brought about that change in a way that made it seem natural and organic? And leave readers thinking...yes, that natural way people mature, but it's still Bart, he's still the same guy "deep down".

It could have worked. Bart had been developing and growing all throughout his solo book. He wasn't just a static caricature of "Waaaaaackyyyyy!" And all the while, Waid and Degazo always stayed true to who Bart is, keeping the development natural. Johns did not, sending Bart on a complete 180. (Completely out of Johns' control, but it doesn't help what the in-story catalysts were, making the change to Kid Flash not only forced and nonsensical, but also insulting Max Mercury and Lilith Clay. And speaking of insulting, is anyone gonna try and say that all the straight up offensive mocking of Impulse and Young Justice as a whole which coats Johns' entire run was ALL editorial mandate?)

[Kyer]

Why would Bart have to become more serious in order to be a Flash? (Baron & Messner-Loeb era Wally had plenty of quirks.)

[Assam]

Why would Bart have to become more serious in order to be a Flash? (Baron & Messner-Loeb era Wally had plenty of quirks.)

I think a lot of people mix up "maturity" with "seriousness." Bart matured over the course of his book, growing as a person and specifically gaining more emotional maturity. But he was still a total goofball. And I don't think he ever would/should stop being that. The idea that heroes need to be serious is part of what's damaged the DCU for so long.

[Godlike13]

My problem with Bart is how he too commonly fell into the funny guy role. At some point he just became the Iceman or Best Boy of his generation.

[stephens2177]

It all started in Graduation Day,thats when everything "had" to be serious,it was annoyijg as piss.

From the end of YJ the series to the beginning of TT was only like 4 months,and in between was the 3 issues of Graduation Day,are you trying to tell me that these characters changed practically everything about them in that short amount of time?

Last issue of YJ had them fighting Secret,bit at the end she got a happy new beginning,and the team was smiling and happy.then the 1st issue of GD is here,and they look and feel like the same YJ....for a few pages, then the serious attitudes from nowhere show up,and never leave.

The last issue of GD is out only 1 month before TT #1,so all this change happens between 1 month right? Kon looks totally different,his powers change,his personality changes,all in one month.give me a break.

And you wonder why we YJ fans are a lil pissy.

[Outside_85]

At some point a writer is going to come in with a pitch DC likes.

[Agent Z]

I think a lot of people mix up "maturity" with "seriousness." Bart matured over the course of his book, growing as a person and specifically gaining more emotional maturity. But he was still a total goofball. And I don't think he ever would/should stop being that. The idea that heroes need to be serious is part of what's damaged the DCU for so long.

This was due to of all things, as I've heard testified several places, the Teen Titans cartoon.

The story goes that in 2003, DC wanted to make the comic Titans more like the cartoon version to tie in to the show. The problem was, several of the members they wanted for the new Titans team were currently with Young Justice. So they did a crossover, Graduation Day, to dissolve YJ and fold it into the Titans. For some reason they decided the ideal man to write this story was Judd Winick, who had never written either team before and is known for a rather heavy handed style, and accordingly the result was an exceptionally dreary tale that included several gruesome deaths and at times almost seem to be an Author Tract against the idea of teenagers being superheroes at all.

So of course it was a huge hit.

The next year, they then decided to do a similar kind of story that would affect the whole universe. Voila, Identity Crisis, dreary, depressing, and penned by a man who had never actually written a comic before.

It was a huge hit. Thus it became the model of DC's storytelling for a good while. Unfortunately.

At some point a writer is going to come in with a pitch DC likes.

Hopefully, it's one audiences like as well.

[Outside_85]

Hopefully, it's one audiences like as well.

I see Kon and Barts return as inevitable since we are bound to get someone at some point who read about them when they were younger and thought they were really cool.

[JackDaw]

I see Kon and Barts return as inevitable since we are bound to get someone at some point who read about them when they were younger and thought they were really cool.

I agree with the (almost) "inevitable".

But as DC creates slowly and surely more and more teen heroes related to a greater or lesser degree to Batman, Superman, Flash, Wonderwoman (and a few other of the "usual suspects")... doesn't it become just a teensy bit boring and pointless?

Certainly since the return of Hal J and Barry A has guaranteed that no Silver Age hero that can sell a solo series will ever be replaced by next generation!

[MajorHoy]

I would LOVE to see both Barry and Conner return to the DCU.

Interesting slip of the keyboard there . . .

[Desean101101]

I love Nuwally because he was a mad kid who got better and was actually getting out of his shell before he got powers, and then he got powers and he thought it was awesome but his life started to fall apart after that. He found out that his Uncle was his dad and that he died on a suicide mission somewhere in the ocean, he found out his surrogate father figure was the flash but was also hurt to learn that Barry knew who his dad really was and kept it from him and also didn't tell his Aunt, The only person outside his mom who gives a damn about him, who he really was and just lies to her.

So he is hurt and doesn't talk to Barry after that but can't just out him to his aunt so he keeps distance from her then he gets abducted into the Teen titans by damian. Is scared but also likes it because he is around kids his age he can talk to and he is opening up again, then He Meets Deathstroke who woo's him with a cool dad/older brother figure type deal before fucking him over royally. Then he finds out he has an older cousin named Wally Also because His dad Had a dick measuring contest with his Older brother about their favorite older uncle when they were little.

So he gets kicked out of the teen titans because deathstroke played on his need for a father figure. So he has no friends, most of his family has lied to him on numerous occasions and everyone he has trusted has fucked him on an emotional level. So he just falls in when Deathstroke comes a calling again because maybe this time he wont be disappointed.

Nuwally, aka. Wallace west, is just a really sad character overall because there has been no upside in his character arc yet, just him searching for a father figure and repeatedly being disappointed in what he finds.