Three Misconceptions about Secret Empire

[Mike_Murdock]

Spoilers for Secret Empire up through #7, Steve Rogers, Sam Wilson, Uncanny Avengers, Ms. Marvel, and The Crew.

I wanted to post this thread when there wasn't an active issue of Secret Empire going on because I wanted to discuss this generally and not be replying to a specific week. Unfortunately, it feels like this title is publishing weekly at this point so I'll just post it now. I feel a lot of the crticisms of Secret Empire have some or all of these misconceptions, so I wanted to take some time to address them. Don't get me wrong, I think it's entirely reasonable to still not like this story for whatever reason, but I want to make sure people at least understand the story because I'm surprised when they miss this.

Misconception Number One: This story isn't about real life politics

I've heard two versions of this, one I'll address quickly and one I'll address in more detail. The quick one is "Marvel has said this is just a good vs. evil story with no real world implications." I hope I don't need to address this in any detail. Marvel is in the business of selling comics. They can see this is a comic that has provoked some controversy and they're hoping that, by downplaying the politics, they can sell more books. You might be turned off by this story either because you're someone who leans right-wing or because this story hits too close to home, so they're trying to pretend it's something else so you buy the book.

The other argument seems to point to the idea that Nick Spencer came up with this idea prior to the election results and wouldn't have known that Donald Trump would have become President. But there are a couple flaws with this. One, regardless of whether Trump won, the sentiments surrounding his election still exist. Hydra in recent books mirror all those sentiments. Steve Rogers's book mirrors the xenophobic, anti-government, coopting the working class to deflect blame on outsiders and intellectuals, etc. that fuels fascism. It is deliberately paralleling the Nazi rise to power by exploring the Great Depression era extremism and then comparing that to the sentiments of today. It's trying to explore how extremism rises to power. There's also the Law and Order crowd that goes with those other sentiments that was explored more in Sam Wilson's book.

Furthermore, the right wing politics symbolized by Donald Trump are not the only right wing politics symbolized by Hydra. Red Skull's takeover of Sokovia is about as clear an allegory to ISIS as one could get. It's continuing the idea of what fuels extremism and shows that extremism takes more, well, extreme versions in places of greater turmoil. I'd also point out two other books Ms. Marvel and The Crew that explore much more mild issues of racism when it comes to gentrification politics. In addition, the latest Ms. Marvel issues are actually directly on point with using superpowered individuals as allegories for immigrants and minorities with some blatant President Trump comparisons as well. When read together, you end up with a surprisingly deep story that explores important issues while still apparently being subtle enough that many people have missed it.

Misconception Number Two: You can take everything presented at face value

This could have been two entries, but they deal with the same fundamental problem. People are the story entirely at face value and not at all questioning whether there might be an unreliable narrator, which is weird when the whole premise of this story involves either reality alteration or memory alteration and flashbacks to that new world.

The two ones are the idea that the Nazis actually won World War II before the allies changed it with a Cosmic Cube. I don't buy for a second that the story is trying to say that's true, just that Steve Rogers believes it is true. It's a way to explain why he is able to remember all his time as a hero but still want to push along this new path. It's the fundamental propaganda philosophy of his regime and what matters is that he believes it, not that it is true. And we're talking about a Cosmic Cube that literally created a surrogate mother figure out of thin air. I can't believe for a second that it couldn't also create memories of the allies using the Cosmic Cube first as justification for their own actions.

The second one is very similar to the last misconception: That's the idea that Hydra aren't Nazis. People have pointed out that the story has gone to great lengths to show that Hydra weren't really Nazis and were even reluctant to join with the Nazi party in Germany in World War II. Now it's true that, in Marvel continuity, Hydra weren't originally Nazis. That was a retcon to tie a generic evil spy organization (think SPECTRE or CHAOS) into older stories (the First Avenger movie probably was a significant factor, ironically out of its desire to downplay the Nazi aspect). It's also 100% true that Marvel continuity has placed Hydra as an older organization before the Nazi thing. All that being said, our evidence of Hydra being reluctant Nazis comes from Steve Rogers's unreliable flashbacks to a new altered reality. One of the characters who is most opposed to allying with Hitler is the character who didn't exist prior to the use of the Cosmic Cube. So, to paraphrase Agents of SHIELD, "yes, they are freakin' Nazis."

Misconception Number Three: Steve Rogers is the Captain America that matters in this story

Part of the reason for writing this was an article by Meg Downey over at the CBR main site. I agree with much of what was said there about Captain America generally. One of the main points is that Captain America works best when he's in tension with an America whose reality doesn't necessarily match up with his ideal:

This is an important point to see clearly, thanks to Steve’s inherent marriage to loaded and deeply personal concepts like “patriotism” and “American pride” — things that carry with them a deep and all consuming fear of wrongness. And not the sort of wrongness that can be punched or locked away, the sort of wrongness that slips into people’s minds and makes them do or think things en masse, things that misrepresent the spirit of the whole.

Translated into comic book story speak, that meant the dramatic question these smear-campaign flavored plots eventually made forced Steve to answer time and time again wasn’t your standard rhetorical Golden Age fair (“What if he’s not strong enough to save the day?” “What if he can’t make it in time?” “What if the villain wins?”)

Instead, through these stories and motifs, Steve’s biggest and most pointed question became “What if he’s wrong?”

That’s a pretty weighty rhetorical to pose against someone who is, for all intents and purposes, designed to embody everything that’s right.

Naturally, it became a rhetorical that was pulled front and center again, and again. The concern that, maybe, just maybe, Captain America didn’t deserve the trust of the people he was trying to protect blended nearly seamlessly with the recurring thematic element of people trying, and failing, to become him, to the point where the two motifs became so heavily intertwined they’re almost indistinguishable.

However, the article criticizes Secret Empire as essentially missing the point of Captain America by turning him into the practical reality of America instead of having him at tension with it. But, to me, the story hasn't missed the point at all. But, to understand the point, you have to recognize that Captain America isn't Steve Rogers, it's Sam Wilson. Sam Wilson is the one who is at tension and wondering if he can represent the ideal in a world gone mad. In other words, all the hallmarks of a classic Captain America story are there, you just have to recognize that Captain America isn't the guy in the green Hydra suit, but the one wearing red white and blue and carrying a round shield.

ETA: I am not caught up with Ms. Marvel. I became aware of the current story arc after I posted this thread, so I've updated my post to reflect that.

[The Cool Thatguy]

It's also 100% true that Marvel continuity has placed Hydra as an older organization before the Nazi thing. All that being said, our evidence of Hydra being reluctant Nazis comes from Steve Rogers's unreliable flashbacks to a new altered reality. One of the characters who is most opposed to allying with Hitler is the character who didn't exist prior to the use of the Cosmic Cube. So, to paraphrase Agents of SHIELD, "yes, they are freakin' Nazis."

To elaborate on this point, the oft used defense of "They didn't start as Nazis, because of Hickman!" ignores the reality that organizations and symbols simply change over time. The Alt Right's frog started existence as a stoner frog, for Pete's sake. The KKK started as a damn social club before graduating to what we now rightfully call terrorism.

For the vast majority of their career, they've been Nazis, albeit on the light side. It's disingenuous at best, to toss the heavy stuff on top and then try to pretend 'Not Nazis!'

[Carabas]

I have a question: when did the whole "Hydra are Nazis" thing start anyway? They weren't Nazis in the 60's. They were a copy of James Bond's SPECTRE, bad guys for Nick Fury and SHIELD to fight. Most Hydra stories I have read, Nazis aren't even mentioned.

[Michael Watkins]

To elaborate on this point, the oft used defense of "They didn't start as Nazis, because of Hickman!" ignores the reality that organizations and symbols simply change over time. The Alt Right's frog started existence as a stoner frog, for Pete's sake. The KKK started as a damn social club before graduating to what we now rightfully call terrorism.

For the vast majority of their career, they've been Nazis, albeit on the light side. It's disingenuous at best, to toss the heavy stuff on top and then try to pretend 'Not Nazis!'

they are an ancient organization. what makes you think that they weren't something other than Nazis for the "majority of their career?"

[The Cool Thatguy]

they are an ancient organization. what makes you think that they weren't something other than Nazis for the "majority of their career?"

Because the story that revealed that is a retcon that's been ignored, by in large? Just like how Strucker's 100 year old wife was funding Hydra because she likes evil?

Point of fact, when that was revealed, Baron Strucker was still in charge of Hydra. So yeah. He took their toys and made his own thing. Or they joined up with Nazis and became...well, take a guess

[Mike_Murdock]

I have a question: when did the whole "Hydra are Nazis" thing start anyway? They weren't Nazis in the 60's. They were a copy of James Bond's SPECTRE, bad guys for Nick Fury and SHIELD to fight. Most Hydra stories I have read, Nazis aren't even mentioned.

I'm honestly not certain, but I suggested Captain America: The First Avenger may have been a watershed moment.

My point is this story has no problems with both being true. Any suggestion that Hydra "aren't really Nazis" or were reluctant Nazis come from a false history created by Kobik.

[ZNOP]

Hydra (Earth-616)

[Mike_Murdock]

Photobucket doesn't let you link to third party sites unless you pay them money now.

[Michael Watkins]

Because the story that revealed that is a retcon that's been ignored, by in large? Just like how Strucker's 100 year old wife was funding Hydra because she likes evil?

Point of fact, when that was revealed, Baron Strucker was still in charge of Hydra. So yeah. He took their toys and made his own thing. Or they joined up with Nazis and became...well, take a guess

I have no idea what you're saying. I was talking about the continuity that has been established in the secret empire storyline. Isaac Newton is involved. they dug Hive up out of a very old looking tomb. Hydra might be Odin-old, for all you know.

[ZNOP]

Photobucket doesn't let you link to third party sites unless you pay them money now.

I store my pics on Photobucket -- and, as you can see from my previous post that I don't have a problem linking to third party sites -- and, I damn sure don't pay for the privilege -- although, I did have to re-verify my account the other day.

[gurkle]

I have a question: when did the whole "Hydra are Nazis" thing start anyway? They weren't Nazis in the 60's. They were a copy of James Bond's SPECTRE, bad guys for Nick Fury and SHIELD to fight. Most Hydra stories I have read, Nazis aren't even mentioned.

I think it sort of started with Jim Steranko's reveal that the mysterious head of HYDRA (i.e. Lee and Kirby's ripoff of Blofeld from the James Bond movies) was actually Baron Strucker. Then a few years later a Captain America writer, Gary Friedrich, had the Red Skull revealed as a mastermind behind HYDRA; if you see a panel of the Skull explaining that HYDRA's mission is Naziism, it probably comes from that issue.

But this wasn't a consistent thing (Friedrich left the title shortly after and most writers didn't follow his lead). So I do think it was really the first Captain America movie that established it.

IMO it's a major weakness of that film that they used this "Nazis but not really" group instead of just having Steve fight Nazis à la Indiana Jones. That kind of thing is now seen (including by Steven Spielberg) as trivializing the Nazis, but I think it just works better.

[NexusTenebrare]

I'm honestly not certain, but I suggested Captain America: The First Avenger may have been a watershed moment.

My point is this story has no problems with both being true. Any suggestion that Hydra "aren't really Nazis" or were reluctant Nazis come from a false history created by Kobik.

I disagree.
The whole Hydra aren't nazis thing has been pushed a lot longer than that. Definitely from before the first Captain America movie. Though I can't give you an example from memory, I know for certain I've read books where that history was established prior to the movie.
Marvel has been on this idea long before Kobik changed Steve and thus it isn't just some reality-altered false history.

[Rosebunse]

I just find it weird because I'm not sure what the "Hydra aren't Nazis" argument even means. Are we saying that the comic isn't making light of the Holocaust? That Hydra isn't as bad as the Nazis? That Nazis aren't as bad as Hydra? Because I feel like a lot of different people are coming up with some very different takes on that one.

[Carabas]

I store my pics on Photobucket -- and, as you can see from my previous post that I don't have a problem linking to third party sites...

Are you sure about that?

[ZNOP]

Are you sure about that?

Yes... at the very least I can see it... Anyone else getting that error msg?