Three Misconceptions about Secret Empire

[gurkle]

I just find it weird because I'm not sure what the "Hydra aren't Nazis" argument even means. Are we saying that the comic isn't making light of the Holocaust? That Hydra isn't as bad as the Nazis? That Nazis aren't as bad as Hydra? Because I feel like a lot of different people are coming up with some very different takes on that one.

Put it this way: Marvel would probably not do a story where Steve Rogers was turned into a Nazi and went around wearing a swastika; they would consider it in poor taste. So the argument about whether HYDRA = Nazis is really an argument about whether or not this story is just as tasteless as a "Steve becomes a Nazi" story would have been.

[NexusTenebrare]

I just find it weird because I'm not sure what the "Hydra aren't Nazis" argument even means. Are we saying that the comic isn't making light of the Holocaust? That Hydra isn't as bad as the Nazis? That Nazis aren't as bad as Hydra? Because I feel like a lot of different people are coming up with some very different takes on that one.

My take on it is that from Marvel's perspective they can make Hydra somewhat more sympathetic by distancing them from nazis.
In story the distinction isn't that big though. It means Hydra might not have shared the main nazi ideology, but rather used them to further their own goals. But in the end they were still complicit in whatever the nazis did.
I don't know where you get making light of the holocaust from though. Where is anyone making light of the holocaust?

[Mike_Murdock]

Yes... at the very least I can see it... Anyone else getting that error msg?

You can see it, but no one else can, which is what I was pointing out. Maybe refresh your cache since I stopped being able to see it in my own photobucket posts, so it's not related to having an account. Anyway, if you can see it and you're happy with only you being able to see it in your posts, that's fine, but I wanted to give you a head's up that no one else is seeing it.

I disagree.
The whole Hydra aren't nazis thing has been pushed a lot longer than that. Definitely from before the first Captain America movie. Though I can't give you an example from memory, I know for certain I've read books where that history was established prior to the movie.
Marvel has been on this idea long before Kobik changed Steve and thus it isn't just some reality-altered false history.

I wasn't suggesting that Hydra not being Nazis came from TFA. I was suggesting the opposite - that the intimate association between the two back in World War II was furthered by the movie to become popular consciousness.

Regardless, my point isn't to take a firm in-universe position on Hydra being Nazis or not. My point was to show that the story isn't trying to distance Hydra from Nazis at all. It's a narrative trick to show why Steve Rogers could view them sympathetically. In-universe, Hydra predates the Nazi party. But the false reality is the idea that there was a "true Hydra" who thought this was a bad idea and Red Skull was corrupting the organization.

I just find it weird because I'm not sure what the "Hydra aren't Nazis" argument even means. Are we saying that the comic isn't making light of the Holocaust? That Hydra isn't as bad as the Nazis? That Nazis aren't as bad as Hydra? Because I feel like a lot of different people are coming up with some very different takes on that one.

My take on the complaint is that people think Marvel is pushing that second one. I'm trying to explain why this is a misconception based on the story.

[ZNOP]

You can see it, but no one else can, which is what I was pointing out. Maybe refresh your cache since I stopped being able to see it in my own photobucket posts, so it's not related to having an account. Anyway, if you can see it and you're happy with only you being able to see it in your posts, that's fine, but I wanted to give you a head's up that no one else is seeing it.

Please, don't get me wrong -- I was getting that message right up to this morning... I thought the problem fix because I can see it now. But, I'll try my 4Shared account.

[Michael Watkins]

I think it sort of started with Jim Steranko's reveal that the mysterious head of HYDRA (i.e. Lee and Kirby's ripoff of Blofeld from the James Bond movies) was actually Baron Strucker. Then a few years later a Captain America writer, Gary Friedrich, had the Red Skull revealed as a mastermind behind HYDRA; if you see a panel of the Skull explaining that HYDRA's mission is Naziism, it probably comes from that issue.

But this wasn't a consistent thing (Friedrich left the title shortly after and most writers didn't follow his lead). So I do think it was really the first Captain America movie that established it.

IMO it's a major weakness of that film that they used this "Nazis but not really" group instead of just having Steve fight Nazis à la Indiana Jones. That kind of thing is now seen (including by Steven Spielberg) as trivializing the Nazis, but I think it just works better.

they were obviously setting Hydra up as a recurring threat. they've been the primary or secondary threat in both avengers movies, two of Cap's movies, and the Agents of SHIELD series. I don't think that they could have pulled that off w/ Nazis (and sell toys).

[Carabas]

My take on it is that from Marvel's perspective they can make Hydra somewhat more sympathetic by distancing them from nazis.
In story the distinction isn't that big though. It means Hydra might not have shared the main nazi ideology, but rather used them to further their own goals. But in the end they were still complicit in whatever the nazis did.
I don't know where you get making light of the holocaust from though. Where is anyone making light of the holocaust?

Making light of the Nazis is making light of the holocaust. Which I why one shouldn't use Nazis as cartoon villains.

[Carabas]

Please, don't get me wrong -- I was getting that message right up to this morning... I thought the problem fix because I can see it now.

It's not a technical problem. It's just that Photobucket has gone completely insane and wants 400 bucks per year for 3rd party sharting now.

[Michael Watkins]

I just find it weird because I'm not sure what the "Hydra aren't Nazis" argument even means. Are we saying that the comic isn't making light of the Holocaust? That Hydra isn't as bad as the Nazis? That Nazis aren't as bad as Hydra? Because I feel like a lot of different people are coming up with some very different takes on that one.

the goal is to not have any conversation about the Holocaust. it and references to Hitler end conversations. it's like trying to discuss the N word. Hydra is the marvel equivalent of Cobra. they are an evil organization that borrows (tactics, ideology, etc) from real world scary organizations. but so is A.I.M. the latter is distinguished by being science-focused. Hydra have suicide bombers and masked gunmen. A.I.M use biological attacks and armed bee keepers. neither group is to be taken as seriously as the Nazis. the Invaders are respected because they fought the real deal (while not dealing w/ Axis Mundi and the more colorful villains).

[Star_Jammer]

Making light of the Nazis is making light of the holocaust. Which I why one shouldn't use Nazis as cartoon villains.

So does comparing everything to Nazis.

[ZNOP]

It's not a technical problem. It's just that Photobucket has gone completely insane and wants 400 bucks per year for 3rd party sharting now.

That sucks... Well, there's 4Shared.com

[Carabas]

So does comparing everything to Nazis.

Sometimes the comparison is proper and right.

[Rosebunse]

Sometimes the comparison is proper and right.

And I think this is my problem. What's wrong with directly comparing something to the Nazis? Who are we offending in that case? The victims of the Nazis? Because it seems to me like at least some of it is extreme-right people not wanting to admit that they're falling into fascist beliefs.

[gurkle]

The other argument seems to point to the idea that Nick Spencer came up with this idea prior to the election results and wouldn't have known that Donald Trump would have become President. But there are a couple flaws with this. One, regardless of whether Trump won, the sentiments surrounding his election still exist. Hydra in recent books mirror all those sentiments. Steve Rogers's book mirrors the xenophobic, anti-government, coopting the working class to deflect blame on outsiders and intellectuals, etc. that fuels fascism. It is deliberately paralleling the Nazi rise to power by exploring the Great Depression era extremism and then comparing that to the sentiments of today. It's trying to explore how extremism rises to power. There's also the Law and Order crowd that goes with those other sentiments that was explored more in Sam Wilson's book.

One of my problems with Secret Empire as an event is that it doesn't have enough political content. The issues you talk about were dealt with in the Captain America books, but the event book itself kind of sidesteps them by skipping from Steve being revealed as HYDRA to a HYDRA-ized America. Because events are summer blockbusters, even a depressing event like this one, there's no time for any real exploration of why things were so ripe for a HYDRA takeover.

Superhero comics aren't exactly built for political thinking, but at least Spencer's Cap books were sort of trying to bump up against some complicated real-world issues. In some of the speeches by the Red Skull and HYDRA-Steve he addresses the resentment of people whose legitimate concerns are written off as bigoted (eg, in a Marvel context, people are called bigots for being afraid of mutants even though some of those fears are well-founded), and how they can be driven into the arms of extremists if the respectable people won't listen to them.

But the event itself has lost (for me) a lot of that nuance because of all the stuff that has to go into making an event, all the SHOCK TWISTS and SHOCK DEATHS. I wish it had stayed in the Cap books and we had gotten a better sense of why and how he thinks this could happen.

And I think this is my problem. What's wrong with directly comparing something to the Nazis? Who are we offending in that case? The victims of the Nazis? Because it seems to me like at least some of it is extreme-right people not wanting to admit that they're falling into fascist beliefs.

It's more that associating an idea with the worst possible thing is a way of not really arguing with the idea. It's like dismissing socialist ideas by talking about Stalin's Russia. So comparing someone who believes [whatever] to a murderous dictatorship may sometimes fit, but sometimes it's a way of avoiding an argument.

[itspopularnowitsucks]

I think it sort of started with Jim Steranko's reveal that the mysterious head of HYDRA (i.e. Lee and Kirby's ripoff of Blofeld from the James Bond movies) was actually Baron Strucker. Then a few years later a Captain America writer, Gary Friedrich, had the Red Skull revealed as a mastermind behind HYDRA; if you see a panel of the Skull explaining that HYDRA's mission is Naziism, it probably comes from that issue.

But this wasn't a consistent thing (Friedrich left the title shortly after and most writers didn't follow his lead). So I do think it was really the first Captain America movie that established it.

IMO it's a major weakness of that film that they used this "Nazis but not really" group instead of just having Steve fight Nazis à la Indiana Jones. That kind of thing is now seen (including by Steven Spielberg) as trivializing the Nazis, but I think it just works better.

I believe Hickman actually established the Nazi association with his Secret Warriors, which came out about 3 years earlier than the Captain America movie. I think after the Great Wheel broke off, Nazis and some Hand members (Gorgon or some name) went to found the modern Hydra. Nick Fury and co went to found the modern S.H.I.E.L.D..

[Michael Watkins]

I believe Hickman actually established the Nazi association with his Secret Warriors, which came out about 3 years earlier than the Captain America movie. I think after the Great Wheel broke off, Nazis and some Hand members (Gorgon or some name) went to found the modern Hydra. Nick Fury and co went to found the modern S.H.I.E.L.D..

You forgetting that the series also established Fury as the mastermind behind the organization? Strucker was in it for himself; not a party/political movement. It was the same with the Russians.