Mockingbird's "Ask Me About My Feminist Agenda" T-shirt popping up in ASM

[Kevinroc]

Where are people getting this weird idea that MJ isn't a feminist?

(Sure, this is from Spidey Super Stories, but Spidey Super Stories weren't some out there radical take on Spidey and his supporting cast.)

[Tuck]

Thus, despite the technical definition that feminists love to quote, many people do not associate feminism with gender equality.

Many people associate conservatism with hating poor people and minorities.

Doesn't make the assessment correct.

[WebLurker]

Many people associate conservatism with hating poor people and minorities.

Doesn't make the assessment correct.

Considering the current administration in the Oval Office here in the States, I'm not surprised by that.

[Tuck]

Considering the current administration in the Oval Office here in the States, I'm not surprised by that.

Trump's not a conservative.

But that's a whole other conversation.

[JoeWithoutFear]

Where are people getting this weird idea that MJ isn't a feminist?

Again, like I said in my previous post, it's because it depends on how one defines feminist. Anything prior to the 2010s (as those panels look to clearly be from) the working definition of feminism was very different than it is now. I was an ardent feminist until about 2012. In college I had buttons on my backpack and took feminist theory classes and everything. These days? Feminism is unrecognizable by those standards.

Many people associate conservatism with hating poor people and minorities.

Doesn't make the assessment correct.

Well, I'm a liberal, but I do agree with you regarding conservatives -- they're the new commies in today's McCarthyism. =)

[keeen]

Just another example of Marvel more worried about pushing political opinions and agendas rather than just writing a simple superhero comic book.

Lol more like they're pushing your buttons, and you're letting them, rather than just being comfortable in your own skin. Here's to hoping they push you the ---- out of comics entirely.

[JoeWithoutFear]

Lol more like they're pushing your buttons, and you're letting them, rather than just being comfortable in your own skin. Here's to hoping they push you the ---- out of comics entirely.

Wow, how "inclusive" of you....?

[Timmyb52]

It's also a T-shirt that is associated with the character, and serves as a way to publicize an acclaimed TPB.

You mean a book that was canceled in less than a year and the only real reason IMHO that TPB sold so well is due to the controversy over that shirt alone.

[nose norton]

She's had multiple jobs though, from modeling, to acting, to running her own club. Renew Your Vows has her running her own boutique.

She's never just relied on Peter for income.

I was talking about their high-school, college years. At the time, the only ones making a living, were Peter and Betty (who seemed to be older back then). Neither MJ, nor Gwen, Harry, Flash, Liz or anyone else in the group, had to deal with monetary concerns.

[Tuck]

Again, like I said in my previous post, it's because it depends on how one defines feminist. Anything prior to the 2010s (as those panels look to clearly be from) the working definition of feminism was very different than it is now. I was an ardent feminist until about 2012. In college I had buttons on my backpack and took feminist theory classes and everything. These days? Feminism is unrecognizable by those standards.

Feminism hasn't changed in that time. Social media and the political climate have just become more toxic. The methods of delivering ideas and opinions has waded into a baseline of annoying with a ceiling of completely-out-of-line. The problem isn't isolated to any one ideology, field, or "ism". People have largely stopped dialoguing. They lecture instead.

Add to that, blogs and other sites driven by content need to come up with that content. If there isn't much to talk about, you need to stir something up so you have something to put up today.

Poor messengers do not equal a poor message.

[Frontier]

I was talking about their high-school, college years. At the time, the only ones making a living, were Peter and Betty (who seemed to be older back then). Neither MJ, nor Gwen, Harry, Flash, Liz or anyone else in the group, had to deal with monetary concerns.

Though I think Parallel Lives established that MJ was doing modeling even back then so she could live on her own.

[nose norton]

Though I think Parallel Lives established that MJ was doing modeling even back then so she could live on her own.

If a bad retcon is all the evidence there is, to support that statement...

[Mister Mets]

As a character, MJ definitely believes in equality between genders. Many people, myself included, have seen too many examples of behavior from feminists that betrays the idea of equality between the genders. Thus, despite the technical definition that feminists love to quote, many people do not associate feminism with gender equality. So, the answer to the debate you all are having has more to do with your own personal experiences with feminists and less to do with MJ as a character. If you think feminists are genuinely working towards equality, then you'll find MJ to be a feminist. If you think feminists are working towards something else, you will not find MJ to be a feminist.

Plus, in her modeling and acting career, MJ has perpetuated "impossible" body image standards that feminists love to hate. So, feminists would probably cannibalize MJ if we're applying this to real life =P Then again, it is completely case by case. Some girl named Mercedes something did porn and was pro-gamergate so feminists said you can't trust the word of a porn actress. But when Zoe Quinn tried to do porn, it was called empowering for women because she was one of the main anti-gamergate activists. So, it's just double-standards as far as the eye can see... which brings me back to why different people will see the same thing as either consistent with, or not consistent with, MJ's character.

This gets kinda messy since the word feminism can mean different things to different people. It would be a mistake for any reader to assume that the baggage they bring to it would reflect how the characters see it.

There are spectrums of views on what constitutes feminism. On one extreme, anyone who wants more rights for women in a patriarchcal society like Saudi Arabia could be seen as a radical feminist. On the other extreme, practitioners of separatist feminism would argue that only lesbians who will interact with as few men as humanly possible can be true feminists.

[JoeWithoutFear]

Also I love they're putting the shirt in here too just because I know so many people got mad over such a stupid thing I want them to keep doing it

Yea! Cultivating pain in others is progressive!! ... wait no, it's the opposite. My bad.

You mean a book that was canceled in less than a year and the only real reason IMHO that TPB sold so well is due to the controversy over that shirt alone.

Bingo.

Feminism hasn't changed in that time.

That's coo'. Agree to disagree.

Social media and the political climate have just become more toxic. The methods of delivering ideas and opinions has waded into a baseline of annoying with a ceiling of completely-out-of-line. The problem isn't isolated to any one ideology, field, or "ism". People have largely stopped dialoguing. They lecture instead.

Add to that, blogs and other sites driven by content need to come up with that content. If there isn't much to talk about, you need to stir something up so you have something to put up today.

Poor messengers do not equal a poor message.

I think that is a very accurate assessment, yes! But then people can't claim to be progressive (ie "feminist") if they engage in tactics that merely get attention or feel good in the short term or are designed to cause others pain (see above). But that requires a level of integrity and honest self-assessment that I think a lot of people lack.

This gets kinda messy since the word feminism can mean different things to different people.

Yup. I said that above.

It would be a mistake for any reader to assume that the baggage they bring to it would reflect how the characters see it.

Then maybe Marvel writers shouldn't be trying to project so much of their personal and divisive politics onto these characters? Focus on the moral stuff that is consistent across all human experiences. Which is what all comic books used to do, and DC comics still does.

There are spectrums of views on what constitutes feminism. On one extreme, anyone who wants more rights for women in a patriarchcal society like Saudi Arabia could be seen as a radical feminist. On the other extreme, practitioners of separatist feminism would argue that only lesbians who will interact with as few men as humanly possible can be true feminists.

Yup. I agree with that too! Maybe we should split up the labels so it's more nuanced than "feminist" and "bigot" =P Personally, in 2017, I don't think you can have a movement based on gender equality that is termed using a gender signifier!! lol!! This is why "egalitarian" works much better in my opinion. "Ask me about my egalitarian agenda" would not have ruffled nearly as many feathers. And to me, ruffling feathers is the enemy of progress. But, many people enjoy ruffling feathers so much that they have convinced themselves it is the ONLY way to progress. So.... basically we're all screwed. =\

[Frontier]

If a bad retcon is all the evidence there is, to support that statement...

Not really sure how it's a "bad retcon." I think it fits with MJ's character as we know it.