Mockingbird's "Ask Me About My Feminist Agenda" T-shirt popping up in ASM

[saiyan_earthling]

Quite frankly, I'm really too worried about this "feminist agenda" stuff. If it happens, it happens.

[Conch22]

The way I feel about feminism from the previous waves until now is best summed up by a Kevin Smith quote on Christianity. "I like the basic idea, it's when we get into the dogma that the problems start."

Women having an equality of opportunity? That's not particularly controversial.

When you get into word policing things like hysteria because of an antiquated use of the word, a gender pay gap that's explanation tends to veer into a strawman argument, terms like mansplaining that are inherently misandrist and used to denigrate men due to their genders instead of articulately explaining why whatever they've said is or isn't correct, this idea of rape culture, that rape, a crime that is possibly the most reviled act one can commit (to my view and my experience of most others in western countries), this notion that rape is a culturally accepted and protected practice comes off as insane fear mongering, alot of it comes off as toxic (or toxic femininity, if you want to subvert another nausea inducing chestnut of a term from more recent times).

Alex Danvers accusing Martian Manhunter of being sexist for no real reason, things like that kinda rub me the wrong way too. Probably because it comes off as an implied blanket statement on men being sexist as a default

[Timmyb52]

Though I think Parallel Lives established that MJ was doing modeling even back then so she could live on her own.

She was also dancing for night-clubs...at least in the Romita 70's years before she took up modeling.

[Confuzzled]

As a character, MJ definitely believes in equality between genders. Many people, myself included, have seen too many examples of behavior from feminists that betrays the idea of equality between the genders. Thus, despite the technical definition that feminists love to quote, many people do not associate feminism with gender equality. So, the answer to the debate you all are having has more to do with your own personal experiences with feminists and less to do with MJ as a character. If you think feminists are genuinely working towards equality, then you'll find MJ to be a feminist. If you think feminists are working towards something else, you will not find MJ to be a feminist.

Plus, in her modeling and acting career, MJ has perpetuated "impossible" body image standards that feminists love to hate. So, feminists would probably cannibalize MJ if we're applying this to real life =P Then again, it is completely case by case. Some girl named Mercedes something did porn and was pro-gamergate so feminists said you can't trust the word of a porn actress. But when Zoe Quinn tried to do porn, it was called empowering for women because she was one of the main anti-gamergate activists. So, it's just double-standards as far as the eye can see... which brings me back to why different people will see the same thing as either consistent with, or not consistent with, MJ's character.

No real feminist has attacked another woman for just being sexually attractive. Real feminists will defend MJ from being slut-shamed and being objectified just because of her clothing, looks and attitude (i.e. all the reasons some of her haters despise her).

I don't know about the example you bring up but I'm sure the critique of that pro-gamergate woman's stance was much more complex than "Can't trust the words of a porn actress". I'm sure the criticism was of the fact that she was opposing the rights and safety of other women and not of her profession. If any "feminist" was shaming her then I'm sure it was most likely men. Liberal men are not totally immune from being misogynists at times, after all.

[nose norton]

She was also dancing for night-clubs...at least in the Romita 70's years before she took up modeling.

One night-club, and she never got paid for it.

[Confuzzled]

One night-club, and she never got paid for it.

It's splitting hairs lol. Regardless, MJ was supposed to represent the new generation of young women who were living by themselves and were liberated when it came to their sexuality during the 60's. Silver Age Gwen was more of a representation of the old-fashioned conservative daddy's girl from the 50's. That's literally the reason Gerry Conway thought she was outdated and didn't provide as interesting dynamics as MJ.

MJ's empowered streaks and Gwen's relative lack thereof was what led to one being pushed as the series' leading lady and another being pushed... well, off a bridge.

[nose norton]

It's splitting hairs lol. Regardless, MJ was supposed to represent the new generation of young women who were living by themselves and were liberated when it came to their sexuality during the 60's. Silver Age Gwen was more of a representation of the old-fashioned conservative daddy's girl from the 50's. That's literally the reason Gerry Conway thought she was outdated and didn't provide as interesting dynamics as MJ.

MJ's empowered streaks and Gwen's relative lack thereof was what led to one being pushed as the series' leading lady and another being pushed... well, off a bridge.

As the story's been told, by several sources, the substitution came along as a series of fortunate (or unfortunate events), starting with the ever present goal of boosting sales. They had gotten below the 300K line, for the very first time, Total PAID circulation (avg) according to comichron, but in the long run, it didn't work out. Only the black costume and the 90's boom achieved that, before falling off a bridge (err, a cliff).

[Confuzzled]

As the story's been told, by several sources, the substitution came along as a series of fortunate (or unfortunate events), starting with the ever present goal of boosting sales. They had gotten below the 300K line, for the very first time, Total PAID circulation (avg) according to comichron, but in the long run, it didn't work out. Only the black costume and the 90's boom achieved that, before falling off a bridge (err, a cliff).

Gerry Conway has said multiple times publicly that he couldn't stand Gwen and thought that Stan was wasting MJ by making her Harry's girlfriend instead of Spider-Man's. While the idea to kill a character did rise out of the need to boost sales, the original choice was Aunt May as suggested by John Romita. Conway convinced him that Gwen would be a better choice instead. It also gave him the opportunity to raise MJ's profile once Gwen was taken off the board.

[Grim Ghost]

Just another example of Marvel more worried about pushing political opinions and agendas rather than just writing a simple superhero comic book.

I guess you don't care for Stan Lee or Steve Ditko then.

[Smoov-E]

You mean a T-shirt that keeps popping up again and again,over and over? No...that's Marvel pushing a political message on race and gender issues then it is a response being made by a female writer in response to over reactive fanboys.I have nothing against female authors or their presence in the comic industry at all...I'm just tired of comics being used by writers as political soapboxes to express their own personal political leanings and beliefs.Make your responses to angry fanboys in a twitter or Facebook messages and keep that stuff out of comics. The job of a comic writer is to write superhero stories not make personal statements in-story to angry fanboys over a gender issue.

Besides this and the cover where else has it popped up?

[nose norton]

Gerry Conway has said multiple times publicly that he couldn't stand Gwen and thought that Stan was wasting MJ by making her Harry's girlfriend instead of Spider-Man's. While the idea to kill a character did rise out of the need to boost sales, the original choice was Aunt May as suggested by John Romita. Conway convinced him that Gwen would be a better choice instead. It also gave him the opportunity to raise MJ's profile once Gwen was taken off the board.

That may very well be the true course of events, and I have no problem with it. We have an unsound editorial decision (it didn't really boost sales) and the worst writer in ASM history, I've had the misfortune to read, promoting his own personal agenda: against the editors original idea (a much better writer than him), with the acquiescence of MJ's creator and the indifference of Gwen's co-creator (did this guy ever cared about anything but business?).

[MetalWoman]

Besides this and the cover where else has it popped up?

I know there was a parody shirt Quentin Quire wore on one cover that said "Ask me about my mutant agenda".

[Starrius]

Gerry Conway has said multiple times publicly that he couldn't stand Gwen and thought that Stan was wasting MJ by making her Harry's girlfriend instead of Spider-Man's. While the idea to kill a character did rise out of the need to boost sales, the original choice was Aunt May as suggested by John Romita. Conway convinced him that Gwen would be a better choice instead. It also gave him the opportunity to raise MJ's profile once Gwen was taken off the board.

A lot of readers felt the same as Gerry Conway about Gwen

[DCordo74]

Gerry Conway has said multiple times publicly that he couldn't stand Gwen and thought that Stan was wasting MJ by making her Harry's girlfriend instead of Spider-Man's. While the idea to kill a character did rise out of the need to boost sales, the original choice was Aunt May as suggested by John Romita. Conway convinced him that Gwen would be a better choice instead. It also gave him the opportunity to raise MJ's profile once Gwen was taken off the board.

There's been a bunch of differing recounts of the tale.

Romita has said that he vetoed the Aunt May thing because he thought it would mean Peter Parker's secret identity wouldn't be a problem anymore. He recalled an old comic strip (terry the pirate) that killed off one of the main character's love interest. That decision by the writers excited and shocked the fans. Conway agreed. With Stan Lee signing off on it. Until he came back from overseas to see the negative reaction from the fans, who didn't want to accept Spider-Man losing. Forcing Conway to write the first Clone Saga just so she could be around if writers wanted to use her...what's funny is...no one did.

Then there's an account that said Conway talked Romita out of killing Aunt May. He felt she was the heart of the series. And without her Peter wouldn't have anyone he felt truly responsible for. Romita agreed. And they got Lee to sign off on it. Until...yada yada yada.

There's one where they killed Gwen off because the only route left in her relationship (apparently) with Peter was marriage. And Peter was too young or she was too boring or the fans didn't like her or whatever. So they killed her.

There's an account where Lee said he didn't even know about her death at all. And he was FURIOUS when he found out about it. However coming to understand after the initial backlash that it was a good idea in the long run.

There's an account where it's all Conway's fault. That he snuck it past both to further his "ship".

It goes on and on. The moral of the story is: take everything Stan Lee says with a grain of salt.

[Starrius]

These videos explained about Mary Jane and Gwen

The Beautiful Origin of Mary Jane and Peter Parker's Relationship �� (Spider-Man)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xtzfzDkWzs

Why the SPIDER-MAN CLONE SAGA Sucks! �� || Comic Misconceptions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUJRJNRqfh4&t=67s


Stan Lee talks about Mary Jane and Gwen Stacy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUqRdAZED9Y&t=32s