whats this milkshake thing all about?

[neohuey89]

The term "alt-right" has been utterly poisoned. It originally referred to a conservative movement that was against identity politics and also against the establishment neo-Cons who they felt didn't represent any genuine political beliefs.

The term alt-right doesn't mean anything anymore. It's about as devalued as the terms "harassment" or "racist" or "Nazi" actually. It was thrown around so willy nilly that now apparently a gay Jew is alt-right...as is someone that wants to kill Jews. As is someone that wants to enforce immigration laws. As is someone that blahblahblah. Apparently they hold identical political outlooks. Anyone that needs to be vilified politically is suddenly "alt-right"...but people can't define what "alt-right" even means. At best it actually means someone that leans conservative and doesn't like the majority establishment "conservative" politicians. This umbrella is so wide it encompasses a HUGE voting base with a MASSIVE variance in political beliefs. It is a "wrongthink" label. It has become newspeak. Nothing more.

Saying Richard Spencer and Stephen Miller visibly hold cohabitant political beliefs is...borderline delusional. It's either so ignorant that it can be totally dismissed or it's so anti-observable reality that I'd be concerned for the person.

I mean.../pol is alt-right, right? Yet they DESPISE Richard Spencer and see him as a fraud and fool. The_Donald is "alt-right" yes? We ALSO hate Spencer for being a racist idiot. The only time we defended him was when he was criminally assaulted because, y'know, we believe in free speech and not assaulting people for things they say.

When a term is so large that it includes massively opposing views it's rather useless as a negative label because it lacks any meaningful specificity.

I mean the same thing can be said about "SJW" liberal crowd.

At this point this fight looks like the Jonathan Hickman Secret Wars #1 cover filled with sheltered overprivileged asshats on both sides that want to get their hits in on whoever in the name of self-gratification.

[random82]

All Marvel did was post support of their female staff, mostly through a couple images. If that's 'propaganda', I have no problem with it. If it's divisive, anyone who would be offended by that isn't worth having as a fan. That one Cobain post by Brevoort is the only one that actually came close to basically said they didn't want the patronage of a particularly nasty group of fans. But that's kind of been their attitude for a while now, even if they don't come out and say the words. And by 'a while' i mean decades. This is not something new. Yeah, that will piss off some. It can be divisive. But the ones getting offended over the presence of women in comics aren't worth catering to, so who cares? Marvel has every right to put their foot down and say they are not going to bend and cater to fans who have repugnant, backwards views that they disagree with.

I'm not talking about this incident in isolation. I'm talking about it alongside everything that has gone before it over the last 6 months to a year. One doesn't have to look very hard to see that a major part of Marvels current output feeds into and promotes this conflict. Every thread on this forum that has even a slight connection to anything involving Marvel's current direction / agenda descends into these debates where people almost seem to be at eachothers throats. It brings about disagreement - even between parties who are actually benevolent, have generally acceptable, tolerant worldviews and who are deep down, I would imagine good people.

Its classic division and segregation and plays into the less desirable traits of human beings to feel the need to choose one side and attack the other. Anyone can see that this is not a good thing and is showing an ugly side to the industry - or rather, in my opinion, creating the illusion of ugliness. These are comic books. They are here to be enjoyed. They are generally supposed to promote positive messages, at least as far as traditional superhero stories go. If the industry has attracted new fans - great, hopefully that will help to keep the medium alive. If the industry has lifelong fans who have been there since the beginning - also great, they need them too.

There is no reason that people should be at war over comic books. Stories can be told on pages where just about anything can be created - thus it should be possible to produce a product where the majority of tastes are catered for and satisfied. It doesn't need to be one or other. Constantly stirring the pot by and then gleefully sitting back to watch the fireworks is not needed either.

The way Marvel has handled their FICTIONAL product has created FACTUAL problems. I will not go into the specifics of what they have done in individual books and to individual characters as these have been thoroughly discussed in other threads. They will be keenly aware of the level of division this has caused. Indeed much of it will have been quite deliberate and some within the company will revel in it. They need to do the responsible thing now and make efforts to address the mess that they have created.

[Darth Gravely]

The term "alt-right" has been utterly poisoned. It originally referred to a conservative movement that was against identity politics and also against the establishment neo-Cons who they felt didn't represent any genuine political beliefs.

The term alt-right doesn't mean anything anymore. It's about as devalued as the terms "harassment" or "racist" or "Nazi" actually. It was thrown around so willy nilly that now apparently a gay Jew is alt-right...as is someone that wants to kill Jews. As is someone that wants to enforce immigration laws. As is someone that blahblahblah. Apparently they hold identical political outlooks. Anyone that needs to be vilified politically is suddenly "alt-right"...but people can't define what "alt-right" even means. At best it actually means someone that leans conservative and doesn't like the majority establishment "conservative" politicians. This umbrella is so wide it encompasses a HUGE voting base with a MASSIVE variance in political beliefs. It is a "wrongthink" label. It has become newspeak. Nothing more.

Saying Richard Spencer and Stephen Miller visibly hold cohabitant political beliefs is...borderline delusional. It's either so ignorant that it can be totally dismissed or it's so anti-observable reality that I'd be concerned for the person.

I mean.../pol is alt-right, right? Yet they DESPISE Richard Spencer and see him as a fraud and fool. The_Donald is "alt-right" yes? We ALSO hate Spencer for being a racist idiot. The only time we defended him was when he was criminally assaulted because, y'know, we believe in free speech and not assaulting people for things they say.

When a term is so large that it includes massively opposing views it's rather useless as a negative label because it lacks any meaningful specificity.

The fact that you think "harassment" and "racist" have been devalued tells me everything I need to know. Let alone that you can find daylight in the xenophobic nationalism of Spencer, Miller, and internet hate groups.

[HUTHAIFA]

I could teach you...but I'd have to charge.

Thank you, it's only line that's has been on mind since hearing about this.


Damn you Kelis

[Yagamifire]

The fact that you think "harassment" and "racist" have been devalued tells me everything I need to know. Let alone that you can find daylight in the xenophobic nationalism of Spencer, Miller, and internet hate groups.

Buzzword-salad with no relation to reality in regards to what I wrote.

You're just looking for justification to dismiss because your arguments are weak, paper thin and incapable of holding up under debate.

So you label and run, desperate in your waving of a white flag you've hastily written "moral superiority" on in marker

[Vault]

Um. I don't think highly of the argument behind this post.

Yeah I'm not sure I agree with it either... seems a bit paranoid honestly. I was trying to re-frame an early post because I believed it was being misinterpreted.

[Darknessatnoon]

Jesus wept, what are you even on about now?

[dragonmp93]

The term "alt-right" has been utterly poisoned. It originally referred to a conservative movement that was against identity politics and also against the establishment neo-Cons who they felt didn't represent any genuine political beliefs.

The term alt-right doesn't mean anything anymore. It's about as devalued as the terms "harassment" or "racist" or "Nazi" actually. It was thrown around so willy nilly that now apparently a gay Jew is alt-right...as is someone that wants to kill Jews. As is someone that wants to enforce immigration laws. As is someone that blahblahblah. Apparently they hold identical political outlooks. Anyone that needs to be vilified politically is suddenly "alt-right"...but people can't define what "alt-right" even means. At best it actually means someone that leans conservative and doesn't like the majority establishment "conservative" politicians. This umbrella is so wide it encompasses a HUGE voting base with a MASSIVE variance in political beliefs. It is a "wrongthink" label. It has become newspeak. Nothing more.

Saying Richard Spencer and Stephen Miller visibly hold cohabitant political beliefs is...borderline delusional. It's either so ignorant that it can be totally dismissed or it's so anti-observable reality that I'd be concerned for the person.

I mean.../pol is alt-right, right? Yet they DESPISE Richard Spencer and see him as a fraud and fool. The_Donald is "alt-right" yes? We ALSO hate Spencer for being a racist idiot. The only time we defended him was when he was criminally assaulted because, y'know, we believe in free speech and not assaulting people for things they say.

When a term is so large that it includes massively opposing views it's rather useless as a negative label because it lacks any meaningful specificity.

Alt-right agrees with Trump and the Alt-left agrees with Tumblr's SJWs. See simple.

And this whole mess proves that the horseshoe theory applies; the right and left may believe opposite things but they act pretty similar.

[Sighphi]

All these diversity hires are scared because all the diversity books are tanking hard, so they came up with the idea to create a similar scenario to what happened with video games and gamergate to try to keep their jobs longer. That's the theory going around.

The problem here is that they did not even try to make it believable. They post a pic of a bunch of them drinking milkshake and then there's,like, FOUR OR FIVE negative tweets about it. Pretty sure that the standard amount of negative replies their standard tweets get. And they go on to create a tag because they were harass simply "for being women in the comics industry."

People ask for Antos to posts the harassing DMs ( why does she have DMs open?) because the five negative tweets about the milkshake offer absolutely no proof of any harassment and she doesnt want to share them because they are too naughty.

Doesnt really matter because this narrative is backed by all their press buddies and this spreads like wildfire and now everyone else is using it for PR to show how many female workers they have.

[Orpheus37]

Except that the comments made about these women on this specific occasion and other criticisms directed at Marvel's creative direction over the last while aren't the same thing. Just as those few individuals who have indeed been out of order with this one don't represent all the 'classic' fans - even those who are finding Marvel's current direction difficult and may have brought this up. Yet these things seem to be getting grouped the same way - and theres a reason for that.

This is propaganda on Marvels part. At this point they are deliberately trying to create a situation of '2 sides' and are revelling in the hostility that is being generated. Stirring up the fires of hate and resentment all in an effort to court controversy and generate interest from the media whilst making themselves look like the saintly hero - saving humanity from the monster, that they, quite literally created through their own manipulations.

I have read plenty of comments that i have disagreed with over the last few months - and they have come from both 'sides'. People do need to take responsibility for their own views and actions but I feel that a huge amount of the negativity that has been generated is on Marvel and has been very much deliberate.

I say that with a great amount of regret as Marvel once stood for something so positive - literally, it helped me through my childhood, and I imagine was the same for many others. Whether or not they had more noble intentions to begin with - they are no longer pushing diversity, they're pushing hate. They can try to portray themselves however they like but deep down thats what it comes down to - manipulating people against each other for their own ends. I have lost all respect for them at this point.

Right on , Random82! I totally agree, we can only hope that they clean house of the majority of their personel including a lot of the writers. I regret saying that but their proud tradition is being tarnished with hate pretending to be virtue.

[Yagamifire]

Alt-right agrees with Trump and the Alt-left agrees with Tumblr's SJWs. See simple.

And this whole mess proves that the horseshoe theory applies; the right and left may believe opposite things but they act pretty similar.

Well yeah horseshoe theory is right. Cuz it's identity politics at either end.

That said, I voted for President Trump because I'm fairly centrist (right leaning) in most views and I felt he was too. I don't have issues with most politics. It's when people get into the disgusting Marxist and Fascist identity politics stuff that I really start to balk at what I'm reading/seeing. Imaginary "oppressors" and what-not.

I also don't disagree that "SJW" is over-used as NeoHuey89 pointed out. Someone being left leaning does not make them an SJW and they shouldn't be labeled with that term. Identity politics nonsense makes an SJW an SJW...and often they will self-label. Someone can even be FAR left into socialism like a Communist or Nazi with strong strong statist beliefs and that doesn't mean they're an SJW...though they most likely have Marxist theories at work in their ideology.

A big difference is that, as stated, many SJWs will self-identify as such. Then they label others as "Nazis" or whatever...and those people they are accusing absolutely do not identify as that in any way. The same goes for overuse of "racist", "bigot", "xenophobe", "misogynist" etc.

When one only thinks in identity politics they will constantly go back to the well of identity politics to label others.

[Orpheus37]

Was this a huge wave of troglodytes or was this just a few random morons?

There's like two comments out of 500 that were actually offensive, literally less than .5%. The other two comments were just salty. Yeah thats a real wave of hatred. They're so full of it, its unreal

[Rogue Star]

I'm hardly on twitter these days,so what have i missed there?

[Drops Of Venus]

To me, I saw this as a sort of straw that broke the camel's back, which resulted in Marvel (and then DC etc. joined in) drawing a line in the sand. Especially after Brevoort retweeted this pic:

Attachment 52480

This sort of commentary and attitude coming from a certain subset of fans is nothing new, this was just the latest example of a a growing trend. And I think this was just the the thing that made them go 'ok, that's it, we're done with these guys' and then set out to make it clear exactly where they stood.

Basically, I don't think the response is really JUST about the milkshake comments, that was just the tipping point.

Yeah, that's my opinion as well. This sort of toxic harassment has been going on for quite a while; the thing about Heather just sort of happened on the right time and it got the right amount of exposure to blow up, but it could have happened to any other employee at Marvel, female OR male. The fact that it happened to a female just made it worse, because while males also get harassment, there is a pattern of female employees getting attacked for simply existing. Like I said on another thread, it has happened in recent times with Rainbow Rowell and Erica Henderson. Their mere presence on a Marvel news/video is enough to trigger all of the anti-SJW crowd. Heather getting attacked even outside of work, having fun with her friends was the last straw that proved how crazy this can get. But overall, I bet this is personal for them, because all of them are victims of cyber bullies. It has started as a feminist thing, but I think everyone at Marvel can relate to this situation in one way or another. Like I said on another thread, editor Jordan D. White once got an actual terrorist threat on his Tumblr. It's insane. And it happens way too often. NO ONE should have to get used to this and I think Marvel employees are taking this opportunity to just show people how tired they are of this abuse and call out people who continue to engage in this sort of online behavior. And there is nothing wrong with that. Those are human beings doing their jobs. You may disagree with them, but certain lines shouldn't be crossed, and I'm glad people are starting to stand up to themselves and others.

[Orpheus37]

All these diversity hires are scared because all the diversity books are tanking hard, so they came up with the idea to create a similar scenario to what happened with video games and gamergate to try to keep their jobs longer. That's the theory going around.

The problem here is that they did not even try to make it believable. They post a pic of a bunch of them drinking milkshake and then there's,like, FOUR OR FIVE negative tweets about it. Pretty sure that the standard amount of negative replies their standard tweets get. And they go on to create a tag because they were harass simply "for being women in the comics industry."

People ask for Antos to posts the harassing DMs ( why does she have DMs open?) because the five negative tweets about the milkshake offer absolutely no proof of any harassment and she doesnt want to share them because they are too naughty.

Doesnt really matter because this narrative is backed by all their press buddies and this spreads like wildfire and now everyone else is using it for PR to show how many female workers they have.

Yeah and its super disappointing to see so many cool, accomplished writers totally suck up and post those dumb milkshake pics.