Generations: Why Release It Before Secret Empire Finishes?

[JKtheMac]

The real reasion is most likley they created generations at last minute after they planned out secreate empire. Marvel saw the fan backlash and DC rebirths sucess so they altered the there plans to make a stop gap for there relaunch in 2018. All legacy and generations are shotty attempts to fix glaring issues that they have without admitting there wrong. Ex old man logan being overused, spiderman becoming iron man, riri fealing like a forced replacment, and trying to kill of the X-Men out of spite. Baring cablesnew direction everything else just had the word legacy tacked on to the title. Marvel is rushing to copy dc but DC planned all this out in advance and were humble were as marvel is in a panic and dosent want to be viewed as ever wrong. Thats why generation came out early marvels in a panic and im scared of some of the idear the'll try to buy time rather then fix there problem.

Interesting but entirely backwards thinking IMO. The idea that Marvel are copying DC is somewhat backwards, given that Rebirth is DC's attempt to replicate Now! I see zero evidence that Marvel have anything to worry about from DC, as their sales graphs are already back on track and mirroring the direct market. I admit these are early signs, and we need another couple of months of data to be sure, but the figures seem to demonstrate Marvel have regained the somewhat dominant share of the market place that they had before Rebirth.

As for these stories, so far we have only seen two books and they don't seem to be trying to fix anything at all. If anything they are sticking to their plans, but reminding the cynics that none of the current stories are divorced from their original premise, are all exploring similar themes, and were all intended to be finite explorations. You seem to be assuming an awful lot from books we have yet to read, aside from a few pages in a preview.

[jackolover]

Not what the story was.

And Banner Hulk was not portrayed simply as a rage monster who would "normally kill people". At the climax, it's Banner Hulk who steps in to forcibly calm down a rampaging Cho.

And Banner was frequently portrayed as living a hobo/vagabond-like existence in both the Silver and Bronze Age (and beyond) so it's no disrespect to show that here. It's a part of his history. A very familiar part of it, not something concocted for the purposes of this issue.

That's just denying the points I'm making. I've read Silver Age Hulk. He was nothing like this Generations Hulk. Banner had class. He never ate out of the garbage. And in this book it was distinctly mentioned Banner said Hulk kills people. Hulk never kills people. He always avoids killing innocents.

Look, I'm not criticising this story, it's just a new facet I was not ready for, but it doesn't change that this was a good story, and a lesson for Cho to stop romanticising Hulk. Just looking at Ultimates 2 #100 Hulk say "he wants to eat the Ultimates" tells you what Hulk is capable of. We've been very lucky with 616 Banner being our Hulk. I think we get a good understanding of what a fine character Banner really is, considering the hillbilly versions we saw in Old Man Logan.

[jackolover]

Well that's certainly not what the Hulk crossover was. The whole thing was about how Banner saw through Cho's own self delusion, that while more in control than the regular Hulk Cho has the same rage issues and is not as fully in control of his own Hulk (the underlying theme of Totally Awesome Hulk).

In this scenario Banner is the hero and solved the problem by getting through to Amadeus that being the Hulk is a curse and now he wants to get rid of it. Seemingly setting up Cho's exit and Banner being the star of the Incredible Hulk.

I hope I'm wrong on the latter. After all Cho seems to have experienced a boost in sales due to the Weapon-X crossover and it would be a shame if Marvel cancelled the book just as it was catching on but worse Banner who himself has struggled to keep an ongoing in the modern market would probably sell no better on the long run but hardly anyone would care because the goal for those kind of "fans" who see political conspiracies would not care. It's about the books on the shelf making them feel safe.

Have we seen some good alternative Hulks, from Secret Wars Greenland saga, to the Banner who sacrificed himself in ANAD to stop a Nuclear reactor explode, to Banner being rendered as in-control before being shot by Hawkeye? It gives Banner a lot of potential in a comeback book, now, to have so many Hulk versions trotted out, (including the OML hillbillies), and why Banner is the one and only Hulk. Big plaudits to Kirby/Lee on his creation.

[Mike_Murdock]

And in this book it was distinctly mentioned Banner said Hulk kills people. Hulk never kills people. He always avoids killing innocents.

Would Banner know whether Hulk has killed anyone?

[Prof. Warren]

That's just denying the points I'm making. I've read Silver Age Hulk. He was nothing like this Generations Hulk. Banner had class. He never ate out of the garbage. And in this book it was distinctly mentioned Banner said Hulk kills people. Hulk never kills people. He always avoids killing innocents.

I don't believe it was said that he kills people in this story. I don't have the issue on hand to reference but you'd have to offer a quote on that. I'm sure people think he kills people and even Bruce believes that he's capable of killing when he's the Hulk but has he actually killed anyone? I doubt that. At the end of the issue, it's Banner Hulk to steps in to forcibly settle Cho's Hulk down and protect the crowds of civilians when he starts to lose it.

And "Banner had class?". There's a such thing as being able to read between the lines. For all the years that Banner spent on the run, travelling by box cars, sleeping in alley ways and so on - where do you think he ate? Four star hotels? Having Banner grab a bite from a dumpster isn't anything that he didn't do previously, whether it was shown or not.

[jackolover]

I don't believe it was said that he kills people in this story. I don't have the issue on hand to reference but you'd have to offer a quote on that. I'm sure people think he kills people and even Bruce believes that he's capable of killing when he's the Hulk but has he actually killed anyone? I doubt that. At the end of the issue, it's Banner Hulk to steps in to forcibly settle Cho's Hulk down and protect the crowds of civilians when he starts to lose it.

And "Banner had class?". There's a such thing as being able to read between the lines. For all the years that Banner spent on the run, travelling by box cars, sleeping in alley ways and so on - where do you think he ate? Four star hotels? Having Banner grab a bite from a dumpster isn't anything that he didn't do previously, whether it was shown or not.

Yeah, it's just a surprise to see it admitted Banner is a bum, and always was. It's a sad indictment on how Banner has to behave just to be the Hulk.

[TheFerg714]

Interesting but entirely backwards thinking IMO. The idea that Marvel are copying DC is somewhat backwards, given that Rebirth is DC's attempt to replicate Now!

lol Legacy is for sure copying Rebirth. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's true nonetheless. Just look at the description of the Legacy one-shot:

"“Rather, it’s the starting gun to a bevy of mysteries, secrets, and revelations that will reverberate across the Marvel Universe in the weeks and months to come! No character, no franchise will be untouched by the game-changing events that play out across its pages. Jason and Esad pulled out all the stops to fat-pack this colossal issue with as much intrigue, action, surprise, mystery, shock, and adventure as possible!”"
"In addition to showing readers how Marvel history and continuity is “all connected,” the publisher promises the special will provide "shocks, twists, clues, and Easter eggs," set up the next year of Marvel storytelling and 53 MU series, and will feature a series of character returns, including "the most talked about return in comics.""

Yea, that sounds exactly like the synopsis to Rebirth #1, just for double the price and a fifth less pages.
And come on man, Rebirth might be taking suggestions from 'NOW!', but if anything, Marvel copied New 52 for that. Isn't it strange how DC makes these big moves and then Marvel simply does the same thing the next year? Too bad they didn't follow suit with DC's limited event schedule.

And sorry, to get to the actual topic at hand, Marvel is releasing Generations during SE because they're lazy and are hurting for fresh ideas, so they figured they'd strawman their audience by assuming that everyone either a) embraces the new heroes, or b) hates diversity and wants the classic characters back.
I don't know why anyone's surprised really... I'm fairly certain they've fully rebooted their universe before the events were even finished a few times now. Eh, I don't think Generations is an altogether bad idea, but I agree with whoever said that they feel inconsequential; like they're just cute little side stories with no lasting impact. With Secret Empire also disappointing, this seems like a pretty crappy way to get people hyped for Legacy, if you ask me.

[JKtheMac]

So Generations continues to follow a pattern with the Thor issue, but Aaron takes it a little further and uses it to tease too.

The ongoing themes of Mighty Thor are aid out in a similar manner to the earlier stories. In this case the way Mjolnir is influencing Jane, the relationship between deities and mortals, and how that relationship is reflected in Thor. Perhaps surprisingly, Jane actually recognises that she needs to rethink her mortality in a moment of clarity. How that gets reflected in #700 will be interesting.

But the main difference here is the manner that Aaron teases Legacy #1, which is quite the surprise ending.

[JKtheMac]

Yea, that sounds exactly like the synopsis to Rebirth #1, just for double the price and a fifth less pages.
And come on man, Rebirth might be taking suggestions from 'NOW!', but if anything, Marvel copied New 52 for that. Isn't it strange how DC makes these big moves and then Marvel simply does the same thing the next year? Too bad they didn't follow suit with DC's limited event schedule.

Not the way I see it. Now was almost the opposite of N52, and when DC did a rethink they went that way too.

And sorry, to get to the actual topic at hand...

Generations is clearly an introduction to the charters and themes of the ongoings. In this I would agree there are similarities with Rebirth, in that it is functionally similar to the Rebirth issues, which were much like #0 issues. That was a weakness in Rebirth for me personally, but it did seem to achieve its aims of easing people back into the books. I am less than convinced by Generations so far. It is a little simplistic and feels unrepresentative of the ongoings' styles and feel.

[theoneandonly]

Odin and Phoenix being lovers takes retconing the phoenix's history to new levels. Is anyone really wanting to read a story of Odin boning a Phoenix and saying it was the only truly period of his life he lived?That should have been Thor's domain. Then again gods consorting with mortals is an age old theme. Maybe now we will find it is the Phoenix who is Thor's mother rather than Gaia. go figure.

[JKtheMac]

Odin and Phoenix being lovers takes retconing the phoenix's history to new levels. Is anyone really wanting to read a story of Odin boning a Phoenix and saying it was the only truly period of his life he lived?That should have been Thor's domain. Then again gods consorting with mortals is an age old theme. Maybe now we will find it is the Phoenix who is Thor's mother rather than Gaia. go figure.

I doubt Legacy will be all about this. I think it hints more at Odin when he was just the son of the head of the Pantheon. It could give us some interesting insight into why he is so distant from Midgard in Thor generally.

Clearly the relationship was more eventful and fraught than the rose tinted spectacles version that Odin seems to have. Maybe Gaia was on the rebound, that could explain a few things.

As to retconning Phoenix, it is already something that predates an origin. And this wouldn't be its origin, so I don't see a problem with a mortal woman with the Phoenix being part of a prehistoric story. Can phoenix truly be said to have a beginning or an end?

[Ra-El]

I doubt Legacy will be all about this. I think it hints more at Odin when he was just the son of the head of the Pantheon. It could give us some interesting insight into why he is so distant from Midgard in Thor generally.

Clearly the relationship was more eventful and fraught than the rose tinted spectacles version that Odin seems to have. Maybe Gaia was on the rebound, that could explain a few things.

As to retconning Phoenix, it is already something that predates an origin. And this wouldn't be its origin, so I don't see a problem with a mortal woman with the Phoenix being part of a prehistoric story. Can phoenix truly be said to have a beginning or an end?

But... didn't Odin defeated and trapped the Mother Storm on the uru after he was already the All-Father? Maybe is Aaron saying that the story Jane read isn't the true one? Maybe Bor is the one who trapped the MS?

[Mike_Murdock]

But the main difference here is the manner that Aaron teases Legacy #1, which is quite the surprise ending.

Could you post the ending in spoiler code for those of us who probably aren't going to pick this up?

[JKtheMac]

But... didn't Odin defeated and trapped the Mother Storm on the uru after he was already the All-Father? Maybe is Aaron saying that the story Jane read isn't the true one? Maybe Bor is the one who trapped the MS?

Even the story device made it clear it was probably only partially true. I have been saying that since that issue.

[JKtheMac]

Could you post the ending in spoiler code for those of us who probably aren't going to pick this up?

spoilers:

After chastising Thor for yet again testing his worthiness by partly lifting the hammer, Odin is seen on a rock in space, talking to a figure revealed to be The Phoenix. He reflects on children never learning, he reflects on his own youth under the 'brutal tyrant' Bor, and how he swore never to be like him (ha ha). It turns out he has summoned The Phoenix for this chat, and she says surely he has wives for such things. It turns out Odin and The Phoenix were lovers, and he misses making love to fire. She warns him not to call on her again or she will turn all that he loves into ash. It seems clear Odin remembers things more fondly than The Phoenix. The last splash page is from the one million BC era, with the pair sharing a kiss.

end of spoilers