Anyone actually surprised about Emma's direction in comics?

[Havok83]

It's on BOTH lists, so it isn't "Quite different things"

Cheating heroes and marriages that ended badly are quite different things. Is there another list you are referencing bc I commented on the one you linked to which is about the 15 marriages

[Victorian_Soul]

While Jean & Scott were together Emma & Scott weren't physically having an affair. It was all just delicious thoughts.



It's on BOTH lists, so it isn't "Quite different things"

And those "delicious thoughts" can easily be made to feel real by any telepath and Emma knows that.

[Tazpocalapse]

I don't mind Emma not being as attached to the X-men as a member. I hate that she was made the convenient scapegoat of IvX. It was lazy and as a fan of Bishop i understand how some Emma Frost fans feel. It seems like they thru alot of years of her development into a more complex and interesting character out the window. I think that the Inhuman killing Sentinels thing was way overboard. Emma is a conniving shiesty manipulative boss @#$%, but she has a very compelling way of making it work for her so that she is able to maintain relevancy. They could have crafted a more organic way to shift Emma towards the gray area again.

[Agent Z]

Preach it!



Yeah, once a villain, always a villain, like, um, Hawkeye, and Black Widow, and Quicksilver, and Scarlet Witch, and Vision, and Wonder Man, and Swordsman, and Moondragon, and the Sub-Mariner, and, gosh, are there Avengers that *haven't* been villains...

Silver Surfer started out feeding planets full of people to Galactus for a living, that's like, the worst the Phoenix has done, and he did it as his *day job,* and Emma's unforgivable because she killed Firestar's horse? Pshaw.

What I do think is interesting is how Emma does tend to define herself based on external factors. She's the White Queen of the Hellfire Club, and she goes 110% into that role. Then she's the co-headmaster of the school with Banshee, and she goes 110% into *that* role. Then she's (effectively) co-leader of the X-peeps with Scott (even if she's officially just 'Scott's girlfriend'), and she goes 110% into *that* role.

She clearly desires a strong defining goal to give her direction, and she's doesn't react well to losing said role (witness her breakdown, to the point of catatonia, after her original Hellions died), although she is capable of transitioning willingly to another role.

But, if the past is prologue, she might break all to pieces, but she pulls herself back together and comes back stronger (and snarkier) in the end. Hopefully that will be the case here, and the next phase of her life will be as different and interesting as the three other phases of her life (White Queen, headmistress, 'Scott's girlfriend').

It is interesting how the power dynamics have changed, and the ratios. In the Hellfire Club, she was one of several dangerous backstabbing equals, but was fashioning her own team of subordinates, since she knew that she couldn't trust her so-called allies. As (co)Headmistress, she had only one acknowledged peer, Sean, and, again, a bunch of students/subordinates. As 'Scott's girlfriend,' again, she only regarded one of her fellow X-Men as a peer (Scott) and had only cursory respect for others (although she gave Kitty some well-earned respect at the end of Whedon's Astonishing run).

Perhaps in a fourth iteration of Emma vs. the world, she'll rely less on a single peer, and cultivate a larger circle of allies, or perhaps she will stand alone, and regard *everyone* as a subordinate... The latter choice seems to be where she is now, but I don't think it's a healthy choice, or one that's going to last, more of a 'if I turn my heart to diamond, nothing can ever hurt me again' sort of reflexive retreat from having allowed herself to feel, and gotten burned by it.

For someone who talks such a good fight about how cold and hard she can be, she tends to form powerful emotional connections, to her Hellions, to her Generation X students, and to Scott, and shatter like glass when those connections are severed. She's got all the defense-mechanism-talk going on, but feels way too deeply for it to ring true.

Surfer only became a Herald to Galactus because it was the only way to save his planet. And he didn't enjoy it.

[spirit2011]

Jean destroyed a star system, Storm ripped the heart out of a little girl, Cyclops killed his mentor, Wolverine slaughters entire groups of people, ...and Emma's bad because she slept with a man whose marriage wasn't working out and who also had a history of cheating on his wife while she was also kissing Wolverine?

The hypocrisy is mind numbing.

Using Emma's origins as a villain to justify how she is now would be like doing the same thing to Rogue. "Oh she started off as a villain always a villain" ....please.

you mean when emma helped to corrupt jean and she killed billions? when she switched places with storm and let sebastian shaw do as he pleases wth storm body?
Jean wasn't cheating on scott, so stop this "she was kissing wolverine". Emma just saw a breach on the marriage (every marriage have problems) then she destroyed it.

Rogue had a rocky start, but grew up to be a better person than Emma could dream of

[spirit2011]

Agreed on all points. There are some very upset Emma fans out there recently so you'll get a lot of flak for having that opinion but I'm with you. Emma meddled and usurped Jean. I still remember reading the Scott/Jean wedding issue. It was amazing, I miss that dynamic and highly disliked Emma's entire schtick since joining the X-Men.

because of emma/cyclops, jean/scott got all sour for me. The relationship is ruined beyond repair. It was really unfair what happened with jean, so emma/cyke could have their wet dreams on comics

[FUBAR007]

CBR literally just did a "top 10 cheating super heroes" and included the Scott/Madelyn/Jean in that list. Including a panel of Maddie hitting Scott.
http://www.cbr.com/horrible-superhero-marriages/

#8

The article you cited is titled "Wedlocked And Loaded: 15 Superhero Marriages That Ended Horribly", not "top 10 cheating super heroes."

Also, note that the article claims that Jean became Dark Phoenix and killed herself after she married Scott:

"Yet Jean Grey went through a transformation when she tried to save the X-Men from a space shuttle crash which caused her to collapse and revive as Phoenix, a mutant with cosmic-level powers. Her ability went out of control, leading her to become the supervillain Dark Phoenix and consume a star. She killed herself to stop her dark impulses, ending the marriage and her life, but the story wasn’t over. Not by a long shot."

Thoroughly researched this article was not.

The panel of Maddie slugging Scott is from before their wedding. Specifically, it's her response to Scott point blank asking her if she is Jean back from the dead. It is not over Scott leaving her for X-Factor. The first time she and Scott meet up after he leaves her, she does a lot more than hit him.

The "cheating superheroes" article is here: http://www.cbr.com/unfaithful-superheroes/

Scott and Jean are both on it. Jean for her kisses with Wolverine and Scott for his affair with Emma. Scott's abandonment of Madelyne is referenced, but not specifically characterized as an affair: "Cyclops has always been a terrible husband. After marrying the clone of Jean Grey, he abandoned her and their son, and she turned evil."

[Michael Watkins]

I missed her being a proper villain. there are not enough ambitious villainesses in the marvel universe. she's an OG.

[ExodusCloak]

When Jean and Cyclops kissed in X-factor Madeylne wasn't announced dead. And when the Adversary was gonna kill everyone and Madeylne was on TV Jean was out right viscious towards her in X-factor. Let's not rewrite history. Madeylnes descent was tragic

And what did the mind trap device do? It allowed Mastermind to project his illusions directly into her mind. It unlocked Jeans deepest desires. As per Claremont X-Men companion she was searching for the ultimate cosmic orgasm. And eating the star was self gratification. If it was Cyclops possessed by the PF and influenced by Mastermind the same thing wouldn't have happened.

[Michael Watkins]

meet-cute

[Tycon]

Jean destroyed a star system, Storm ripped the heart out of a little girl, Cyclops killed his mentor, Wolverine slaughters entire groups of people, ...and Emma's bad because she slept with a man whose marriage wasn't working out and who also had a history of cheating on his wife while she was also kissing Wolverine?

The hypocrisy is mind numbing.

Using Emma's origins as a villain to justify how she is now would be like doing the same thing to Rogue. "Oh she started off as a villain always a villain" ....please.

-Bishop committed near genocide
-Old Man Logan literally killed ALL the X-Men
-Jean Grey smashed a crystalline Marauder to pieces
-Fantomex JUST betrayed the X-Men in IvX and vowed to destroy them....a month or two later he's back on the team.
-Psylocke killed Magneto, someone that the X-Men haven't considered a 'villain' in years, for no reason.

[ExodusCloak]

X-Men and the Micronauts - Xavier destroyed solar systems with billions of inhabitants. Highest X-Men death count bar Wanda

[Tycon]

X-Men and the Micronauts - Xavier destroyed solar systems with billions of inhabitants. Highest X-Men death count bar Wanda

And, while "brainwashed", raped Moonstar.

[yogaflame]

Jean destroyed a star system, Storm ripped the heart out of a little girl, Cyclops killed his mentor, Wolverine slaughters entire groups of people, ...and Emma's bad because she slept with a man whose marriage wasn't working out and who also had a history of cheating on his wife while she was also kissing Wolverine?

The hypocrisy is mind numbing.

Using Emma's origins as a villain to justify how she is now would be like doing the same thing to Rogue. "Oh she started off as a villain always a villain" ....please.

1) That was Phoenix and/or Jean committed suicide when she realized what she had done.

2)That 'girl' had hooked a bomb to her heart and was about to suidice bomb the tunnels with a subway car full of innocents. Either Storm ripped it out and stopped the bomb, or let her kill herself and the innocents. And she felt horrible about it. And that 'girl' has a second heart and lived.

3) Under the influence of the Phoenix Force. Emma was exploring cannibalism under 1/2 that influence.

4) Logan is a serial killer, we've known that from jump, but he also struggles with it and tries to stop that animalistic part of himself.

5) Rogue's time as a villain was when she was teenager, and her moms literally told her to do it.

Emma's villainy was as a mature woman of her own choice and she REVELED in causing harm to and manipulating people. Murder, rape, animal torture, and slavery are just the beginning of her crimes. Emma is just reverting back to form (as she also did in the end of Gen X).

[Havok83]

When Jean and Cyclops kissed in X-factor Madeylne wasn't announced dead. And when the Adversary was gonna kill everyone and Madeylne was on TV Jean was out right viscious towards her in X-factor. Let's not rewrite history. Madeylnes descent was tragic

And what did the mind trap device do? It allowed Mastermind to project his illusions directly into her mind. It unlocked Jeans deepest desires. As per Claremont X-Men companion she was searching for the ultimate cosmic orgasm. And eating the star was self gratification. If it was Cyclops possessed by the PF and influenced by Mastermind the same thing wouldn't have happened.

What is scan supposed to prove? Friends arent supposed to hug?

Jean did kiss Scott in X-factor but there was no affair. It is false to say he cheated on Maddie and left X-factor to be with Jean. Its rewriting history to state otherwise. They did not become a couple until after he had beleived Maddie to be dead.

Jean wasnt too sympathetic towards Maddie during FoTM, but that was a flaw in her, not Scott, and not really relevant to this notion that he's a serial cheater. He never explicitly went after another woman while married until Emma

Mastermind manipulated Jean and Emma was involved in that. She and the HFC were after Phoenix's power and wanted to control her. She wasnt some innocent in driving her insane

I missed her being a proper villain. there are not enough ambitious villainesses in the marvel universe. she's an OG.

Was she really that ambitious? The worse thing she really did was kill a horse in order to push Firestar towards getting closer to her so she could manipulate her into killing Selene. Emma as a villian is really overexagerated and she was quite small scale in comparison to other female villians like Mystique, Selene. Heck or even Zaladane