Goku vs Silver Surfer

[Dalak]

Can't surfer just absorb parts of a huge energy blast as an alternative to tanking? I think he'd just blitz Goku to dirt, but even in a scenario where Goku was allowed to attack continuously I figure the surfer would just absorb and use his speed to fly with the energy blast. I mean,I doubt your ever see such a thing in comic,but can't he do it?

He could even use said energies to boost his defenses when Bloodlusted (Energy shield, using Ki normally as with Cosmic Awareness he'd probably be aware of how Goku is using his energy to do so, a countering blast, etc) if it's argued he can't absorb that much energy, so he'd be constantly absorbing and then expelling all the energy he could to save himself. That's a great idea!

[Pendaran]

Can't surfer just absorb parts of a huge energy blast as an alternative to tanking? I think he'd just blitz Goku to dirt, but even in a scenario where Goku was allowed to attack continuously I figure the surfer would just absorb and use his speed to fly with the energy blast. I mean,I doubt your ever see such a thing in comic,but can't he do it?

One that is doing damage on the scale of the universe? That would be beyond his power absorbing pay grade frankly.

[Cody]

So, I'll be a bit more specific.

Since the initial universe threatening clash has happened, what has Goku done since then, to support it. Another question of note would be; and is there anything that contradicts it.

No, and no. The reason being explained as them actively preventing shock-waves from spreading out:



^-Basically to explain why future fights won't cause that again. While the beam clash was only survivable due to Beerus, who was, and still is, quite a bit more powerful than Goku, which is why it even got to that point in the first place. Same with the beam clash. The two were just letting it all go, right until Goku couldn't control it. That's when Beerus had to step in and negate it.

The feat, btw; does not, in any way shape or form, put Goku at universal level. It puts Beerus at that level for negating it, but it only shows Gokus power output is, at the very least, galaxy-multi galaxy busting and is powerful enough to contribute to the universes near destruction. He was only responsible for half of the power shown in the fight, and the Kamehameha puts out more energy than he actually has.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

No, and no. The reason being explained as them actively preventing shock-waves from spreading out:



^-Basically to explain why future fights won't cause that again. While the beam clash was only survivable due to Beerus, who was, and still is, quite a bit more powerful than Goku, which is why it even got to that point in the first place. Same with the beam clash. The two were just letting it all go, right until Goku couldn't control it. That's when Beerus had to step in and negate it.

I know Beerus is more powerful, it's kind of a plot point that he could, and would do the whole "Destroy everything" thing, provided he wasn't entertained/well fed. That's fine.

The feat, btw; does not, in any way shape or form, put Goku at universal level. It puts Beerus at that level for negating it, but it only shows Gokus power output is, at the very least, galaxy-multi galaxy busting and is powerful enough to contribute to the universes near destruction. He was only responsible for half of the power shown in the fight, and the Kamehameha puts out more energy than he actually has.

The question I'm asking is nothing to do with whether or not Goku is "x" amount of powerful. It's, what has Goku done since the fight that everyone keeps going back to, to prove that he can in fact, do that consistently. The answer, as I understand it is ... or at least the answer you're putting forward is- and please correct me if I'm wrong because I definitely could be- he can't. What he did was the result of him 1) cutting lose in a way he never has before (read: until it's time for another plot power-up) 2) somehow using more power than he actually has because ... reasons. 3) now that's he's got a handle on his newfound power, he'll never consciously output that level of power again.

At which point ... it becomes a question of, where's the ceiling ? Are we going to hand-wave tiers and tiers of power because he's "holding it in check", simply because he said so ? Where's that ceiling stop ? In which case, the Surfer received a "hefty" power-up after he killed Aegis & Tenebrous, for example, but we don't take that into consideration because in the year(s) since that comment was made, nothing has been shown to even imply that it's a thing.

After a certain point wouldn't it become an issue of statements versus feats ?

---

All of that said, there is mod-ruling on the matter now. Consider this my final comment on the matter.

[Dalak]

One that is doing damage on the scale of the universe? That would be beyond his power absorbing pay grade frankly.

Well remember that it's because of the inclusion of Bills, so at best he's only 50% of that output. Considering how much stronger Bills is though, I'm betting lower.

Unless something has come out that definitively puts Goku at his equal level of power.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Considering that Bills wasn't overpowering Goku during those exchanges, it looks more like they were each providing roughly half the force of the impacts (which Goku was actively mitigating the entire time), and Bills was holding back a *lot* in order to enjoy himself and let Goku get a chance to acclimate himself to God Ki, seeing that he was able to instantly nullify the force of their beam war when he felt like it.

[Cody]

I know Beerus is more powerful, it's kind of a plot point that he could, and would do the whole "Destroy everything" thing, provided he wasn't entertained/well fed. That's fine.



The question I'm asking is nothing to do with whether or not Goku is "x" amount of powerful. It's, what has Goku done since the fight that everyone keeps going back to, to prove that he can in fact, do that consistently. The answer, as I understand it is ... or at least the answer you're putting forward is- and please correct me if I'm wrong because I definitely could be- he can't. What he did was the result of him 1) cutting lose in a way he never has before (read: until it's time for another plot power-up) 2) somehow using more power than he actually has because ... reasons. 3) now that's he's got a handle on his newfound power, he'll never consciously output that level of power again.

At which point ... it becomes a question of, where's the ceiling ? Are we going to hand-wave tiers and tiers of power because he's "holding it in check", simply because he said so ? Where's that ceiling stop ? In which case, the Surfer received a "hefty" power-up after he killed Aegis & Tenebrous, for example, but we don't take that into consideration because in the year(s) since that comment was made, nothing has been shown to even imply that it's a thing.

After a certain point wouldn't it become an issue of statements versus feats ?

---

All of that said, there is mod-ruling on the matter now. Consider this my final comment on the matter.

The ceiling is 50% of that beam clash. By "holding in check", I meant they, or I should say; Beerus, wasn't controlling the damage his attacks were causing to their surroundings like they usually do. Which then turned into a condensed ball of energy, like a scan above pointed out. The Kamehameha allows the user to charge up energy, which allows them to put out more than they can dish out:



^perfectly explains what I am talking about.

Considering that Bills wasn't overpowering Goku during those exchanges, it looks more like they were each providing roughly half the force of the impacts (which Goku was actively mitigating the entire time), and Bills was holding back a *lot* in order to enjoy himself and let Goku get a chance to acclimate himself to God Ki, seeing that he was able to instantly nullify the force of their beam war when he felt like it.

As does this .

[rhyvurg]

Well that is about the fist bumps anyway. The beam struggle is pretty simple, as both translations more or less say the same thing:

Yup, that is exactly true. But that energy generated a third, identical shock wave to the fist bumps. Bills cancelled the merged energy, but that was ten minutes into episode 13, and the shock wave was gone when he did it, he did nothing about that at all. And Old Kai wasn't talking about the merged energy, he was talking about the fist bumps. I have no problem with the merged energy claims being legit, because that was caused by an interaction of god ki, meaning it's not only something Goku can't reproduce on his own, it's something that simply would not happen against anyone who doesn't use that same energy. So, literally only against Bills, other gods of destruction, and maybe Vegeta. No one else. So the event has no bearing on his fight with Surfer, who can shrug off anything Goku has then do any of a million things to kill him.

So, I'll be a bit more specific.

Since the initial universe threatening clash has happened, what has Goku done since then, to support it. Another question of note would be; and is there anything that contradicts it.

Nothing in DBS since has supported it.

[Cody]

Yup, that is exactly true. But that energy generated a third, identical shock wave to the fist bumps. Bills cancelled the merged energy, but that was ten minutes into episode 13, and the shock wave was gone when he did it, he did nothing about that at all. And Old Kai wasn't talking about the merged energy, he was talking about the fist bumps. I have no problem with the merged energy claims being legit, because that was caused by an interaction of god ki, meaning it's not only something Goku can't reproduce on his own, it's something that simply would not happen against anyone who doesn't use that same energy. So, literally only against Bills, other gods of destruction, and maybe Vegeta. No one else. So the event has no bearing on his fight with Surfer, who can shrug off anything Goku has then do any of a million things to kill him.

No rhyvurg. None of that has anything even remotely to do with what happened, and this is the problem. Not once has the show made a statement claiming that the whole thing was due to god energy, that is something only you have gotten into. Literally the only source of that is from you. And, as said before; the shock-wave had nothing to do with it. That is why Elder Kai said it wasn't finished yet. My reply had that very thing explaining that to you. We have scans proving this to you. Stop blaming the shock-waves, or trying to say it has something to do with god ki because that is not what the show has said. And now there is a mod ruling against you, so enough is enough.

Nothing in DBS since has supported it.

False, as Siriel pointed out how that was not the case, that there have been enough showings to support it, and Dork and I explained why Goku isn't allowing it to get that far again.

[rhyvurg]

No rhyvurg. None of that has anything even remotely to do with what happened, and this is the problem. Not once has the show made a statement claiming that the whole thing was due to god energy, that is something only you have gotten into. Literally the only source of that is from you. And, as said before; the shock-wave had nothing to do with it. That is why Elder Kai said it wasn't finished yet. My reply had that very thing explaining that to you. We have scans proving this to you. Stop blaming the shock-waves, or trying to say it has something to do with god ki because that is not what the show has said. And now there is a mod ruling against you, so enough is enough.

Yes Cody. The only source is not from me, it's just the only logical conclusion you can draw from the series. When Goku cancelled the impact from their fist bumps, there was no sense of force, no struggle, just...a light tap. Yet in episode 13, Goku lost the god form and kept fighting as a regular super saiyan. Then in episode 14 they went back to fist bumping, but this time there was force. Skip to 3:03 in the episode to see it for yourself. He wasn't negating the impact, it was very clearly different than before. He still had the power to fight and hurt Bills (Bills was shocked by this) but no longer had god ki. This means that it's not the amount of power, it's the kind of power. No god ki on both sides,, no universe-threatening energy. So against Surfer, Goku is simply not going to be capable of this.

False, as Siriel pointed out how that was not the case, that there have been enough showings to support it, and Dork and I explained why Goku isn't allowing it to get that far again.

There have been zero showings to support it. And you yourself posted why.

[Hazard]

Goku (in SSJB) has also managed to overpower Fused Zamazu's blast with a Kamehameha. Sure, it broke his arms and Zamazu likely wasn't going all out, but Zamazu is a guy that showed he could operate on a scale of 'and then I become the universe' when he had no more fucks left to give. This would be in line with his presentation against Beerus. Not on the same level, but also not so low they won't notice him at all.

[Cody]

Yes Cody. The only source is not from me,

It is because it goes against what is said in the show.

it's just the only logical conclusion you can draw from the series.

Uh, no it's not? You are just trying to make it below than what is really.

When Goku cancelled the impact from their fist bumps, there was no sense of force,

It was shaking the universe, as we saw it shake before the shock-waves began to expand, and this isn't even just about them, but the beam clash as well.

no struggle, just...a light tap.

Wasn't even remotely a "light tap", as they were clearly punching each other with a lot of effort. Why are you constantly trying to make feats such as these out to be something they clearly aren't? How could you possibly say that was a "light tap"?

Yet in episode 13, Goku lost the god form and kept fighting as a regular super saiyan.

Again; this was explained in the show. Scans have been posted in this very thread explaining this already.

Then in episode 14 they went back to fist bumping, but this time there was force.

There was force before, as I described above.

Skip to 3:03 in the episode to see it for yourself. He wasn't negating the impact, it was very clearly different than before. He still had the power to fight and hurt Bills (Bills was shocked by this) but no longer had god ki. This means that it's not the amount of power, it's the kind of power. No god ki on both sides,, no universe-threatening energy.

Literally every single thing in this quote here was explained in the show itself. Goku already learned how to negate the damage, having perfected it already. Again; this has all been explained in the scans provided so you are just repeating yourself despite already been proven otherwise with scans. It was outright stated(in the scans I have already provided) that even as a SSJ, Goku still had that level of power. And it was explained in show why they don't create those effects anymore. It had nothing to do with the type of ki, nor was that ever a reason in the show. You are now making up information to fit your argument despite it contradicting what is seen and said in the show.

I'll re-post the scans once more:


^-Explains why those effects don't happen anymore.



^-After Goku lost SSG.

So against Surfer, Goku is simply not going to be capable of this.

Except he is for the reasons shown above, and this:

No god form, yet Beerus doubts he could negate that type of power.

Surfer wins via esoteric. But without it? He wouldn't be tanking what Goku can dish out.

There have been zero showings to support it. And you yourself posted why.

From Goku, but there have been thoughts who do operate on that level that Goku can contend with, which is a feat within itself as there is nothing to contradict that performance to make it SMvFL. As Hazard pointed out, Goku had got into it with beings far more powerful than Beerus, so that further supports it.

At this point rhyvurg, you are going against scans, showings, and a mod ruling.

MODERATOR
Having reviewed the evidence presented, I feel comfortable in agreeing that the destruction was due to the clash of energies (fists, beams) from Goku and Beerus and not the shockwaves. The waves were merely an aftereffect, them showing off. I also feel comfortable in stating that this is now an official feat since we've had similar displays of power since then. Beerus vs Champa threatened to destroy their universes so they got KO'd by Whis and Vados, Zamasu became the multiverse upon his physical destruction, future Zen'o destroyed said multiverse, present and future Zen'o wiped universe 9 and then 10 with all the effort of raising their hands, etc. It will now be considered a moderator ruling on the subject that the destruction was a result of the clash of power between Goku and Beerus.

There isn't any point for you to argue this anymore, it's over. Surfer wins this, but not because he can tank what Goku can dish out(he can't), but because of his speed and esoteric. The only chance Goku would have is if he started out as a SSBKKx10(as Surfer isn't letting him charge up to that)and used his teleportation technique. If you have anything else then by all means, go ahead and post. But to continue on this feat with Goku and Beerus would be going directly against the mod ruling. And what do you think will happen if you continue doing that?

[Guy1]

Goku (in SSJB) has also managed to overpower Fused Zamazu's blast with a Kamehameha. Sure, it broke his arms and Zamazu likely wasn't going all out, but Zamazu is a guy that showed he could operate on a scale of 'and then I become the universe' when he had no more fucks left to give. This would be in line with his presentation against Beerus. Not on the same level, but also not so low they won't notice him at all.

It is because it goes against what is said in the show.



Uh, no it's not? You are just trying to make it below than what is really.



It was shaking the universe, as we saw it shake before the shock-waves began to expand, and this isn't even just about them, but the beam clash as well.



Wasn't even remotely a "light tap", as they were clearly punching each other with a lot of effort. Why are you constantly trying to make feats such as these out to be something they clearly aren't? How could you possibly say that was a "light tap"?



Again; this was explained in the show. Scans have been posted in this very thread explaining this already.



There was force before, as I described above.



Literally every single thing in this quote here was explained in the show itself. Goku already learned how to negate the damage, having perfected it already. Again; this has all been explained in the scans provided so you are just repeating yourself despite already been proven otherwise with scans. It was outright stated(in the scans I have already provided) that even as a SSJ, Goku still had that level of power. And it was explained in show why they don't create those effects anymore. It had nothing to do with the type of ki, nor was that ever a reason in the show. You are now making up information to fit your argument despite it contradicting what is seen and said in the show.

I'll re-post the scans once more:


^-Explains why those effects don't happen anymore.



^-After Goku lost SSG.




Except he is for the reasons shown above, and this:

No god form, yet Beerus doubts he could negate that type of power.

Surfer wins via esoteric. But without it? He wouldn't be tanking what Goku can dish out.



From Goku, but there have been thoughts who do operate on that level that Goku can contend with, which is a feat within itself as there is nothing to contradict that performance to make it SMvFL. As Hazard pointed out, Goku had got into it with beings far more powerful than Beerus, so that further supports it.

At this point rhyvurg, you are going against scans, showings, and a mod ruling.



There isn't any point for you to argue this anymore, it's over. Surfer wins this, but not because he can tank what Goku can dish out(he can't), but because of his speed and esoteric. The only chance Goku would have is if he started out as a SSBKKx10(as Surfer isn't letting him charge up to that)and used his teleportation technique. If you have anything else then by all means, go ahead and post. But to continue on this feat with Goku and Beerus would be going directly against the mod ruling. And what do you think will happen if you continue doing that?

Honestly, this feels like the end of the thread. As has been said, Goku has thrown down with characters at or above Beerus's level since the feat and has performed feats that are in line with the feat. I feel this backs up the feat just fine.

The feat and ruling will stand as they are.

Additionally, I do not see much room to continue here so I am going to close the thread.