What is the reason many people don't like Duke Thomas

[Aahz]

And I am sure that was said about a lot of others including Tim, Dick & Jason.

In therorie you can make a solo with every character if you get a strong/popular creative team on the book (the current Mister Miracle is an example).

But the problem with Duke is that a demand for him seems much lower than for a lot of the older Batfamily members.

[millernumber1]

That's all good but Duke isn't comparable to any of those characters. He had support from the Bat office and Snyder, still does. Its clear that influential parties want him to be a thing and have given it their all to make that happen.
Tim Drake at this point of his existence really broke out while Damian was starring in the hit Batman and Robin.

He has support, but no vision that's lasted longer than about 2 years. The problem is really simple, actually: Snyder has NOT given his all to make it happen. He has NOT written a Duke solo by himself.

This is a lot like the Talon book - putting a brand new co-writer on a brand new character. And though Tynion has proved himself since Talon, that was not a great start. I hope for good things from Patrick, but the two pieces I've seen from him - the New Talent Showcase and the first issue of The Signal, are just not very strong. They're not the worst, but even We Are Robin was a stronger work.

In therorie you can make a solo with every character if you get a strong/popular creative team on the book (the current Mister Miracle is an example).

But the problem with Duke is that a demand for him seems much lower than for a lot of the older Batfamily members.

Yes. But as I said in this post, we don't have a strong or popular creative team. You have Snyder's name, but he's clearly trying to launch Patrick so Patrick can get the solo by himself if the mini sells well enough.

I think fans like him okay, but I also think that Snyder has alienated a significant chunk of fans with the Rebirth push in ASB. I don't know if there was anything like that in the major pushes for other characters, except probably the way Steph and Damian got their Batgirl and Robin roles.

[DragonPiece]

A lot of you keep putting your own opinions to facts. We know according to scott snyder the first issue of the signal sold well and all of Duke's past apperances in rebirth sold well, so it's weird you guys act like he is a failure. And besides on CBR(which there is praise among some negativity), I've seen a lot of praise on Twitter and on review sites for the first issue of the mini. Duke is doing just fine at the moment.

Like Millernumber1 said this is the worst done PUSH DC has done since Cyborg.

We got 3 versions of Duke.

The first one-who should be Damian's age not an aged up teenager.

The WAR version-who would not even bother with Batman's offer to be the Signal. In fact he was in the vein of New 52 Wally West with issues (ie getting locked up and kicked out of schools)

The Rebirth version-who should have been the one we saw after Endgame.

I disagree, if you are counting his introduction as a supporting character in the batman book, I don't see that as a push. You can say gotham girl also had a push then. His role in WAR was a push sure, but there was no promise of him getting a solo or a big role beyond that book when it was announced.

His only push started in Rebirth, and I think DC themsleves had a good plan. Supporting role in the main Batman book, has a big role in all star batman and the book's backup's and then eventually graduate him to a superhero.

Where they messed up is having Snyder do small things like call duke better than other robins and not design his initial suit better. And seeing as how everywhere Duke has appeared in since his push in Rebirth has sold super well (Batman,All Star Batman,Metal preludes) I am sure DC agrees Duke has earned a place.

[Assam]

And seeing as how everywhere Duke has appeared in since his push in Rebirth has sold super well (Batman,All Star Batman,Metal preludes) I am sure DC agrees Duke has earned a place.

You mean the most successful book DC has, the second most successful book of Rebirth written by the guy whose previous run was super popular and the event comics? I would be amazed if, all together, there were 100 people who bought those specifically because Duke was in them.

[oasis1313]

You mean the most successful book DC has, the second most successful book of Rebirth written by the guy whose previous run was super popular and the event comics? I would be amazed if, all together, there were 100 people who bought those specifically because Duke was in them.

I'm waiting for The Signal #1 (no Batman or other Bat-Family members) to come out and sell 500,000 copies overnight.

[DragonPiece]

I'm waiting for The Signal #1 (no Batman or other Bat-Family members) to come out and sell 500,000 copies overnight.

No one is saying anything like this, I'm just saying you guys are over exaggerating sometimes with your own hate of the character despite he has sold consistently well where he needed to. I mentioned this in the Duke thread, but the reason his mini is only 3 issues is because Cully Hammer could only make time to do that many and they wanted the art to be consistent. It wasn't because DC was worried about sales.

[Assam]

I'm just saying you guys are over exaggerating sometimes with your own hate of the character .

Don't hate Duke, dude.

despite he has sold consistently well where he needed to. I mentioned this in the Duke thread, but the reason his mini is only 3 issues is because Cully Hammer could only make time to do that many and they wanted the art to be consistent. It wasn't because DC was worried about sales.

You seem to be in denial about the fact that all of the titles you cite were going to be incredibly successful with or without Duke, and the only title he was in that wasn't a guaranteed success was also the one where he was the main character, and that was a financial flop.

[Coal Tiger]

No one is saying anything like this, I'm just saying you guys are over exaggerating sometimes with your own hate of the character despite he has sold consistently well where he needed to. I mentioned this in the Duke thread, but the reason his mini is only 3 issues is because Cully Hammer could only make time to do that many and they wanted the art to be consistent. It wasn't because DC was worried about sales.

What book has depended on the popularity of Duke Thomas for it's sales?

[Barbatos666]

I'd also add that Batman by King only utilized Duke for the first 8 issues from 9-38 Duke has appeared only 3 times and in none of the issues save possibly the Monster Men ones was Duke even remotely a relevant character. That's ok but he was certainly not the break out character from King's run. Catwoman, Bane and Riddler take that prize.
All Star similarly utilized him in a Robinesque role in the first arc, almost forgot about him in the second arc and removed him altogether from the final arc. His back ups also lasted the length of only the first 2 arcs and were replaced by the third arc. On top of being short and cancelled they were vague and rather pointless. KGbeast, Two-Face, Ivy, Alfred and Freeze were the hit characters of that series.
Duke was not the breakout character from either books, no new character was.
I think Murphy has done the most sincere and consistent job with Duke so far in White Knight.

[millernumber1]

I'm waiting for The Signal #1 (no Batman or other Bat-Family members) to come out and sell 500,000 copies overnight.

We Are Robin sold 52k for the first issue. I'd say Batman and the Signal will likely do more because of Snyder's name and the Metal tie-in thing, so I'm expecting Batman and Robin Eternal numbers. So about 75-76k for the first issue. BRE dropped to 54 in the second issue. I think that would be reasonable to expect when it's a three issue miniseries. If it does that, I'm pretty sure DC is going to assume that "Duke sells well" and give him an ongoing, which will perform more like We Are Robin, because it won't have Snyder's name on it.

Thinking about this is so frustrating. Why doesn't DC (and Snyder) realize that if they want to sell Duke, Snyder needs to stop trying to hand Duke off and actually write at least a year of a solo with someone else. It's Snyder's name (I'd argue even more than Batman's name) that sells this comic. (Also, I'd say this if Snyder were trying to hand Duke off to Higgins, Tynion, and Bennett, his other co-authors he's tried to launch the same way. It's not just Patrick, though Patrick has much less success than any of the other three at this point).

I'd also add that Batman by King only utilized Duke for the first 8 issues from 9-38 Duke has appeared only 3 times and in none of the issues save possibly the Monster Men ones was Duke even remotely a relevant character. That's ok but he was certainly not the break out character from King's run. Catwoman, Bane and Riddler take that prize.
All Star similarly utilized him in a Robinesque role in the first arc, almost forgot about him in the second arc and removed him altogether from the final arc. His back ups also lasted the length of only the first 2 arcs and were replaced by the third arc. On top of being short and cancelled they were vague and rather pointless. KGbeast, Two-Face, Ivy, Alfred and Freeze were the hit characters of that series.
Duke was not the breakout character from either books, no new character was.
I think Murphy has done the most sincere and consistent job with Duke so far in White Knight.

Excellent analysis. You could argue that Kite Man is sort of breakout, but he's very intermittant (less than Duke, though I think that also makes him less unpopular), and not technically a new character.

I agree with you on Murphy - but Murphy is smart, and doesn't have Duke supplant or take smack about a beloved established role. I mean, he talks smack about Batman, but Murphy's Batman is kind of a jerk.

[Barbatos666]

Oh yeah Kite-Man too.

[oasis1313]

Any numbers out yet?

[Aahz]

Any numbers out yet?

Usually we don't get numbers untill the middle of the next month, so in 5 weeks from now.

But it doesn't look like it sold more than Batman White Knight which sold roughly 70K last month.

But imo 3 issues are anyway not enough to draw any conclusions from the numbers.

[oasis1313]

Usually we don't get numbers untill the middle of the next month, so in 5 weeks from now.

But it doesn't look like it sold more than Batman White Knight which sold roughly 70K last month.

But imo 3 issues are anyway not enough to draw any conclusions from the numbers.

Absolutely. That's why Duke needs his own ongoing solo with no other Bat-characters in his way.

[Assam]

We Are Robin sold 52k for the first issue. I'd say Batman and the Signal will likely do more because of Snyder's name and the Metal tie-in thing, so I'm expecting Batman and Robin Eternal numbers. So about 75-76k for the first issue. BRE dropped to 54 in the second issue. I think that would be reasonable to expect when it's a three issue miniseries. If it does that, I'm pretty sure DC is going to assume that "Duke sells well" and give him an ongoing, which will perform more like We Are Robin, because it won't have Snyder's name on it.

Thinking about this is so frustrating. Why doesn't DC (and Snyder) realize that if they want to sell Duke, Snyder needs to stop trying to hand Duke off and actually write at least a year of a solo with someone else. It's Snyder's name (I'd argue even more than Batman's name) that sells this comic. (Also, I'd say this if Snyder were trying to hand Duke off to Higgins, Tynion, and Bennett, his other co-authors he's tried to launch the same way. It's not just Patrick, though Patrick has much less success than any of the other three at this point).

I'd bloody love to know what the game plan is right now. Despite what people joke (I hope they're joking), being a Batbook doesn't guarantee success. 5/9 of the Bat ongoings right now aren't doing so hot, all of them will be below 20,000 before their 2 year mark and 3 of those will likely be cancelled by that point. Different standards I know, but you can toss Mother Panic in there too if you want. So with that in mind, you'd think they'd want to try new books for their biggest successes outside of Bruce and Dick, who still have demand (and are currently either being sidelined or butchered) but no, they're gonna give a book to Duke based off clearly inflated sales.

Frankly, I think the only reason we won't be seeing the dissolving of the Batline and a downplaying of Batbooks in general is because DC has even less confidence in their other brands.

But imo 3 issues are anyway not enough to draw any conclusions from the numbers.

And yet, while he could be lying, Snyder is saying that they were only expecting the book to sell 20K to 30K (That part I definitely don't buy), but are so impressed that if the sales continue to look good, an ongoing is likely.