What is the reason many people don't like Duke Thomas

[JBatmanFan05]

I do think DC underestimates the, to some degree, vocal criticism of the large bloated Batfamily.

On one hand, Batman and his family of comics sell well and kinda disprove the criticism, but also the criticism gets aired a lot by fans.

[Assam]

Unsurprisingly, I completely disagree that they should strip the family. Especially since they already tried that

I really don't get why people keep asking for this. Look at history! Every time they try to shrink the BatFamily,we just end up with more characters, because any character who was popular or is even just lucky enough to have a writer who connected with them, is going to come back, and in the mean time, they'll add their own characters to fill the void.

[Frontier]

I do think DC underestimates the, to some degree, vocal criticism of the large bloated Batfamily.

On one hand, Batman and his family of comics sell well and kinda disprove the criticism, but also the criticism gets aired a lot by fans.

He can certainly carry a larger family better then most major franchises (even Spider-Man).

[Aahz]

Unsurprisingly, I completely disagree that they should strip the family. Especially since they already tried that, and its was really sexist in execution, if not necessarily in motive.

Sorry i wanted to write "Batgrils" somehow the s got lost.

But for the rest of the cast I don't really see a point to keep them around for more than occasional guest appearances (or maybe support roles in the books of the other characters).

[Aahz]

I really don't get why people keep asking for this. Look at history! Every time they try to shrink the BatFamily,we just end up with more characters, because any character who was popular or is even just lucky enough to have a writer who connected with them, is going to come back, and in the mean time, they'll add their own characters to fill the void.

You don't need to erase the characters, but If a writer to use them for a story he can still bring them back from limbo for that, but I don't see much of a point in them having regular appearances.

[ayanestar]

It's less of a problem with the Duke character himself and more of a problem with Snyder as a writer. Harper Row was the EXACT same thing. Some Mary-Sue "awesome amazing fan-favorite SJW perfect genius crimefighter" character that Snyder created and immediately pushed onto the readers as hard as he could. He dropped her when he realized that she wasn't actually a fan-favorite and no matter how great he said she was the readers wouldn't embrace her.

He failed with Harper and started trying again with Duke, but more aggressively this time by completely pushing Damian out of the Batbooks. Tim Drake already felt superfluous in the New 52, but Snyder had to push it a few steps further by creating a few more characters to flood the Batfamily even more. He's desperate to leave a permanent mark on Batman lore and instead of doing it through timeless storytelling he's trying to force his pet characters to be loved and embraced by the fans.

In reality, Duke, like Harper before him, is bland, generic, boring, and completely unnecessary. He's needlessly "replacing" an established and well-liked character in Damian, who is completely MIA in the Batbooks and got shipped off to the Titans because Snyder didn't want to include him. The Batbooks desperately need new life and talent, and a head writer who will embrace the existing Batfamily and try to tell great stories with them rather than shipping them off in favor of their pet characters.

I wouldn't go so far to say Duke is "completely unnecessary" because I think the Bat Family could use some new characters + new ideas. There is a new generation growing up and sometimes trying something completely different with a new hero can work however Duke is an interesting case. He has been around for almost 5 years and has been in more than 100 issues but the only place, where I see people caring about him is tumblr or twitter when they make one of their "diversity in comics" posts. People never really talk about him or why they like him. And several people in this thread have pointed out all main points why he (and Harper) are having a hard time to gain a strong fanbase:

The fundamental problem that Snyder and Tynion and his team don't understand is that compelling characters don't start off being completely perfect and amazing and instantly loved. Compelling characters are flawed, and improve upon their flaws (compelling characters are never absolutely perfect) over the course of their story, and begin to earn respect and love through actions and personality.

I don't dislike him, but I'm not interested in him either. The Batfamily is already big, I would prefer if the writers focused on the character development and relationships between the characters they already have established and are underdeveloped.

Fans of other Batman characters (mainly Tim Drake fans) are worried he's taking up their space in the comics/replacing them. It doesn't matter that nearly ever bat family character around is being represented at pretty well recently, they will always see him as a threat.

On the one side we have writers trying to push all fan favorites aside to push their own creations and on the other side are the fans, who have been waiting to see the said fan favorites - instead they get a new character, who is simply amazing and you have to like them. You can't expect a new character to do well if you antagonize the present fandoms. This is actually a really silly reason but it's the reality. The comic fandom isn't big, let's be real here a lot of comic writers even struggle to get anything published, which is why it's important to gain the support of other fans in the Bat Family like the Robin and Batgirl fans. I really don't understand how they can repeat the same mistake they did with Harper all over again.

2. Show don't tell (the important things like how duke has earned the right to be his partner where everyone for a time were sidekicks)

This is actually a good point and one of the main problems with Duke's writing. It's like the Angara in the new Mass Effect game. "Show, don't tell" is like the most important technique in books. Readers don't always want you to tell them what to think or what to feel, readers want to interpret significant details in the book and the same applies to comics.

For those saying that Duke doesn't bring anything to the Bat-family, I really think that you should give a try to B&S issue 1. it may not be your cup of tea or anything, really, but I think it does a wonderful job explaining what Duke's role in the Batbooks will be, and makes it interesting. Now, if really you don't like Duke, just go read it in the LCS or something, I think it'll be worth it.

Today I bought "Batman and The Signal" because I wanted to know if Snyder finally got the message and improved his writing but apparently he didn't. This is the comic I wouldn't recommend to anyone, who already has a low opinion of Duke. It literally repeats all mistakes they have done so far. The only positive thing I can say about is that it was well-structured but that's all. Also the Batman here was behaving like a totally different character, there is just so much wrong with his dialogue. Also does Gotham really needs a daylight superhero? If yes why has it to be Duke because honestly even after reading so many issues involving him including this one I can't answer the question.

But hey I really want to give him a chance because there have been some good moments with him and there is potential. He simply needs the right writer because there have been several new characters in DC, who have gained the support of fans thanks to a new writer. Alycat has pointed out some, I'll quote it below but I think I'll skip the rest of this mini series. It is a mini series, right? I have no idea. Anyway the whole Signal thing is just not working for me but I think new fans might enjoy it if they actually know or care about a dude in a yellow costume.

Like the way Priest is writing current Tanya and Wally. Or Seeley writes Helena. Or Simon and Jessica. New Superman Kenan. Or even Luke Fox by Tynion. All more interesting in a shorter time period.

[failo.legendkiller]

I wonder at those who feel the urge to deny an argument that wasn't directed at them. Mmmm I wonder why?

Instead of responding in this way, try to ask yourself why people like us never complained when characters like Tim, Cassie or Steph were introduced. Of how we naturally learned to love them and ,instead, why we find it hard to accept Duke.
Perhaps because instead of interacting with others, Duke is imposed as a threat and not as a brother, or because its creator imposes it as a subject superior to others.
I never felt that Tim stole the scene or the space from Dick, Cassie from Barbara or Steph from Cassie. Indeed, all these additions have always increased the development of all the characters.
Snyder did not do this with Duke, and this is the main reason why the boy does not like to many people.

[Assam]

Sorry i wanted to write "Batgrils" somehow the s got lost.

Assumed as much, but I kinda thought you'd flipped your stance again for a second.

But for the rest of the cast I don't really see a point to keep them around for more than occasional guest appearances (or maybe support roles in the books of the other characters).

You don't need to erase the characters, but If a writer to use them for a story he can still bring them back from limbo for that, but I don't see much of a point in them having regular appearances.

Isn't that pretty much what we have now? Look at Volkanik's list (where I'm now seeing they wrote "Cassie Chan." I was unaware that there was a Power Ranger in the Batfamily). A few characters have 'solos' (Bruce, Dick, Jason, Damian, Kate, Babs (2 in her case)), a bunch of them are all in 'Tec (the crowdedness of which is an entirely separate issue) a few of them appear in the books of other characters (Selina, Julia and Alfred), a few of them have only been appearing sporadically (Claire, Bette and Harper) and we don't know where Duke is gonna end up once his mini is over.

I'd love to see a shake up in the Bat-line as while I like it more than I did at (almost) every point between 2006 and 2016, it's still in a pretty sad and sorry state, but the fault doesn't lie with the characters.

[Assam]

I never felt that Tim stole the scene or the space from Dick, Cassie from Barbara or Steph from Cassie.

You're right about Tim and Cass, but Steph? After Steph became Batgirl, Cass was in limbo for a year and a half, only coming back in time for the last few months before the reboot. That said, Steph's a different case from all the others as she was already an established character at the time she became polarizing. And in her case, because of the timing and how many new readers were getting into the Bat books around that time, the thing that made her polarizing to us Cass fans ended up gaining her a LOT of love with new fans. Without Batgirl,she would not have been known as one of the big 3 erasures of the Nu52 alongside Wally and Cass.

[DragonPiece]

Instead of responding in this way, try to ask yourself why people like us never complained when characters like Tim, Cassie or Steph were introduced. Of how we naturally learned to love them and ,instead, why we find it hard to accept Duke.
Perhaps because instead of interacting with others, Duke is imposed as a threat and not as a brother, or because its creator imposes it as a subject superior to others.
I never felt that Tim stole the scene or the space from Dick, Cassie from Barbara or Steph from Cassie. Indeed, all these additions have always increased the development of all the characters.
Snyder did not do this with Duke, and this is the main reason why the boy does not like to many people.

1. Internet was not as huge 2. There wasn't a precedent of new characters taking spots of old characters at the time 3. Those characters didn't have to deal with fans being upset at them for adding in diversity 4. They had better writers who introduced them

I can go on and on..

[skyvolt2000]

Tim did not take anything form Dick because Dick had the Titans to star in while Tim was in Batman and being SEEN with Batman in every issue not one page cameos like Duke.

Stephanie Brown first appeared in Detective Comics (which I own) and she was MIA for 3 years until Tim got his book. She was in his support cast.

Cassandra took NO ONE's spot when she finally showed up as Babs was already established as Oracle and had a book called Birds of Prey. Than Cassie became Batgirl and was Ms Marvel before Ms Marvel was created.

What is the ONE major difference between now and then? The above three were in WELL done books. Tim HEADLINED 3 Robin minis. He got a spot in DC Showcase. He got Young Justice. Tim was sold as a fully developed character from day ONE.

Tim has been BURIED in crappy books since 2003 with crappy stories like Identity Crisis. 15 years of crap.

Not in LIMBO like Cass & Steph. Not because you had no writers who wanted them-because of MANAGEMENT. See that is the factor no one wants to talk about. You don't see Harper if those two were free to use.

There three with OG Wally, Jaime Reyes, Jason Rusch & John Stewart have been constantly CRAPPED on. SO yes those fans will take issue with Harper, Jessica Cruz, Simon Baz, Fake Wally, Duke, New Superman, Superwoman & the Dark Metal guys.

Other factors are screwing these guys over while others are not.

For me it is the later, we are told that he is the next coming ultimate badass and never shown why.

THIS....

You can not sell a character and not make an EFFORT. We keep hearing Duke is different from Tim but Tim has over 200 issues that shows him better than Duke. You can not sell Duke with a 3 issue mini and 110 pages out of 100+ issues of Batman Universe.

We see the comment "I want you to be better.." Yet we don't see it. Was Duke suppose to have a role in Metal?? For those reading has he done anything other than kick Hal?

Duke's issue is WRITING.

[millernumber1]

I do think DC underestimates the, to some degree, vocal criticism of the large bloated Batfamily.

On one hand, Batman and his family of comics sell well and kinda disprove the criticism, but also the criticism gets aired a lot by fans.

DC, I think, mostly cares about whether the Batfamily sells. And it keeps doing so, despite the complaints. If we see a Batfamily member fail miserably, then DC will likely actually put serious thought into a culling. But I don't really see that happening.

I really don't get why people keep asking for this. Look at history! Every time they try to shrink the BatFamily,we just end up with more characters, because any character who was popular or is even just lucky enough to have a writer who connected with them, is going to come back, and in the mean time, they'll add their own characters to fill the void.

Well said. You can't have a story without supporting characters. And every writer has always wanted to make new characters, because you get money from them if they catch on. (See also: the real reason I think Snyder keeps making new characters up.)

Sorry i wanted to write "Batgrils" somehow the s got lost.

But for the rest of the cast I don't really see a point to keep them around for more than occasional guest appearances (or maybe support roles in the books of the other characters).

Ah. I withdraw my complaint. I'm cool with the Robins and Batgirls. I would be very curious to see what an actual culling of characters ended up like in sales. On the one hand, you'd get rid of a bunch of fans (I would be one, if you got rid of Steph again, since last time she was erased, I left comics for almost three years). On the other hand, you might end up with really big sales due to scarcity of titles. Unless DC was dumb and replaced all the side-characters with MOAR BATMAN BOOKS.

They haven't given me a reason to like him besides being black. Except I've already been through this game with Marvel and just making a character that looks like me isn't enough. They need an interesting personality and backstory and to you know not be a blatant attempt to put down other characters I love. Duke is not interesting and needs better writing.Like the way Priest is writing current Tanya and Wally. Or Seeley writes Helena. Or Simon and Jessica. New Superman Kenan. Or even Luke Fox by Tynion. All more interesting in a shorter time period.

Well said. Priest, Seeley (and for me, the Bensons), and Tynion have made Tanya and Wally, Helena, and Luke big favorites of mine. I mean, I already loved Helena in her pre-n52 version, and enjoyed the Grayson version quite a bit, but until Rebirth, she didn't really act like the Helena I knew.

[skyvolt2000]

I'd love to see a shake up in the Bat-line as while I like it more than I did at (almost) every point between 2006 and 2016, it's still in a pretty sad and sorry state, but the fault doesn't lie with the characters.

Well of that list

Solo runs that equal or over 100 issues
Batman
Catwoman
Dick Grayson
Babs Gordon
Tim Drake
Harley (sort of)
Jean Paul Valley

Solo runs between 10-90
Cass
Michael Lane
Luke Fox
The other Batwing
Joker
Stephanie
Damian
Batwoman
Jason Todd (sort of)

Solo run under 10
Duke
Chase
Oprehus

Teams
We are Robin
Birds of Prey
Outsiders (sort of)
Gotham Central
Red Hood & Outlaws

It's hard to make a case of getting rid of folks when you see the success.

[skyvolt2000]

Well said. You can't have a story without supporting characters. And every writer has always wanted to make new characters, because you get money from them if they catch on. (See also: the real reason I think Snyder keeps making new characters up.)

Why does Snyder get called out for it when Johns been doing it for years in Green Lantern and WILLINGLY chased off an entire fanbase who will not return.

Bendis got this too for some reason with guy named Miles-who mainly stayed in his own book for 3 years.

I would be very curious to see what an actual culling of characters ended up like in sales.

You get a Hal Jordan book with lower than expected sales for over 25 issues. Meanwhile the other Green Lantern book with Johns pets outperforms or equals Hal's book. Along with SILENCE over those two taking his JL spot.

In other words the reaction depends on who gets the cut.

Cass, Tim & Stephanie get you a bigger and RIGHTFULLY deserved backlash. Because this mess has been going on for too many years and those fans have every right to do like John Stewart fans and leave Dc completely. If money for those guys in not welcomed-then no money for any Dc books is not welcomed.

Duke gets DC RIGHTFULLY rip as well. Because it goes back to DC's issue with black characters getting any development and support. It vindicates the complaints of Cyborg, Static, Aqualad, JS, Black Lighting, Vixen, Jason Rusch & new Wally fans. No one should have to beg you to do justice with these guys every month and in a way that shows RESPECT to others.

It should never be Duke or any of the others. When will it be Duke, Tim and EVERYBODY on the same page instead of creating fan wars. Did we not learn our lesson with Green Lantern & Flash?

[Assam]

DC, I think, mostly cares about whether the Batfamily sells.

Except for when they're incredibly petty.

Also, four of the current Bat books are failing, with Batgirl about to join the other 3 in the below 20,000 club and Kate and Terry still dropping fast. Jason and Damian are doing fine, but they're not exactly doing great. The only titles that are actually selling really well are Batman and 'Tec, while Nightwing is only doing a bit better than Super Sons, but it also has about three times as many issues so it's fine.

Given how crap the Bat books are actually doing, you'd think they'd knock off a couple of the damp squibs and give books to the three most successful characters in the Family outside of Bruce and Dick, Tim, Cass and Selina.* All of whom still have tons of demand and one of them is literally the most successful POC character (in comic form) DC has.

*Don't be thrown off by Skyvolt's list. Babs is only that high in the solo issue count if you count Birds of Prey and I believe what we're seeing now, like with Kate, is the real size of her current audience. No Nu52 hype or millennial relaunch hype. And while JPV did make it to 100 issues, his book actually was tanking by that point.

Ah. I withdraw my complaint. I'm cool with the Robins and Batgirls.

Just the Robins and Batgirls isn't ideal for me at all, but I could live with it (with the idea in place that the other characters are still around and can appear at any time)