Why are the Fantastic Four called "dated"?

[The BaRoN]

They're dated because they are all heterosexual and white.

This.

The reason Val has been shoved aside as the smartest by moon girl to fit diversity in alonsos deluded mind

[Iron Maiden]

Doom killed Sue.

That was old lady Susan from the some different future, the one where Old Man Logan existed. And she captured both Doom and Johnny to hitch them into Mark Millar's silly Galactus battery to jump start Big G. Both of them found the process extremely painful. She was a bit ruthless because they could have died and she didn't care....not even for her brother.

[JKtheMac]

They're dated because they are all heterosexual and white.

Ok. I know this is basically trolling but I will bite because it needs addressing.

You are taking an assertion that is disputed anyway, that is clearly based upon their cosy family dynamic, and then applying some illogical cynicism. What do we gain from that?

How does it add to the debate? What about the Fantastic Four that has anything whatsoever to do with race or sexuality?

The point of diversity is to reflect everyone. Clearly white straight heroes exist in the MU today, nobody says Wolverine is dated, nobody calls out Bruce Banner as dated. Both of them are dated of course, but it isn't used as a label. Let's face it Hulk was based on nineteenth century inspirations. Why is it that we don't call them dated?

We know this isn't the reason we don't have a Fantastic Four comic. We know it is to do with intellectual property priorities. The only extra thing we are bringing to that debate is trying to decide if they really are a dated property and what that means. That isn't an excuse to attack diversity.

[Crimz]

I see a lot of people (myself included) suggest that exploration is the key to FF... but when HAS it been? I've been reading off and on since the 80's and it seems like they've never really DONE anything like that. Which is what I think the problem with them are. Most writers focus so heavily on how they are the FIRST marvel Team, the first family of Marvel. They are the most experienced, most intelligent... if you ever need anything sciencey done... you go to the FF. They have almost always had the 'been there, seen that' attitude that it's hard to go back and write them as really exploring or learning ANYTHING new without first 'insulting the history' of the characters. it's a very delicate tightrope, but 'exploration' has been on the backburner since the Lee/Kirby days. It's like they took them so far, that nobody knows what to next....




yeah, Sue is weak sauce. They try so hard to make her fit, but nothing really works. They've upped her powers, focused on her protective 'mom' mode. But nothing that screams 'Superhero' like so many other characters. She really only seems to be around because 1) She loves Reed... and 2) She loves her Brother. That's what I loved about the last cartoon series that made her all of that, but also an adventure thrill-seeker. Someone who is just excited to be a part of all the adventure that I never get from comic-Sue. Maybe it's always that go-to attitude of 'I just want a normal life and normal family and raise the kids in safety' that is the complete opposite of Superheroes. She needs to embrace the heroics and not resent them.

That's the problem a writer needs to not worry if their run might "step on the toes" of Stan and Jack's run. It's much more important for the team to grow and explore as that is what they need to do. I don't believe it's particularly hard to make them explore the unknown, but for some reason writers seem reluctant to do it.

On Sue, while I wouldn't call her weak sauce she does need a more active role on the team. She needs to be more than "just there because the others are", she needs to want to be there because she loves the adventure or another reason other than because she has to. That's part of the reason I want her to be the medic as it suits her for multiple reasons, I'd also would like if thrill seeking was Storm family trait.

[MichaelC]

I think it may also be that the very idea of explorers has become conflated with the evils of colonialism in the minds of many writers, probably because of the origin of explorer fiction in the pulp era. In the pulp era, exploration fiction was mainly a metaphor for how the West viewed the places they explored and colonized, especially Asia and Africa. Even stories set in space had the white male European encounter beings who were pretty much Space-Asians, Space-Africans, and Space-American-Indians. That in addition to many earth-based stories in which heroes explored an exoticised version of regular old Africa, Asia, and the American frontier. At the time, this exploration was viewed positively, as civilizing the savages, and the tone of the stories reflected this. Eventually, though, explorer characters started to be viewed negatively, and even stories about space exploration started to become uncomfortable, at least the version where they encountered species who were metaphors for earth cultures.

I think it's telling that the last major example of Richards going adventuring in deep space was when he and the Illuminati provoked the Skrulls into attacking earth. That's a complete 180 from how his adventuring was treated back in the more pulp-influenced era.

It is now extremely hard to write a story about the Fantastic Four exploring that doesn't makes a modern, liberal writer uncomfortable. Unless that story is about the Fantastic Four making a mess, in which case fans of the FF are going to be irritated that they are now reading about blundering borderline villains.

[Iron Maiden]

I see a lot of people (myself included) suggest that exploration is the key to FF... but when HAS it been? I've been reading off and on since the 80's and it seems like they've never really DONE anything like that. Which is what I think the problem with them are. Most writers focus so heavily on how they are the FIRST marvel Team, the first family of Marvel. They are the most experienced, most intelligent... if you ever need anything sciencey done... you go to the FF. They have almost always had the 'been there, seen that' attitude that it's hard to go back and write them as really exploring or learning ANYTHING new without first 'insulting the history' of the characters. it's a very delicate tightrope, but 'exploration' has been on the backburner since the Lee/Kirby days. It's like they took them so far, that nobody knows what to next....

Most recently Fraction had them go on this extended holiday through time and space but mostly it was a distraction because he was hiding information about some condition they had. Reed also got into a bit of trouble exploring on his own with the Bridge where he encountered the Council of Reeds.

During Bryne's run they took an exploratory trip/holiday to the Negative Zone. They went to some less hostile zones and IIRC that's where Reed and Sue's second child was conceived.

But as with most superhero comics, trouble comes to knocking on the door. They generally don't go looking for it. But writers would need to come up with some new places to explore. You can't keep going to the Negative Zone, Atlantis, etc.

yeah, Sue is weak sauce. They try so hard to make her fit, but nothing really works. They've upped her powers, focused on her protective 'mom' mode. But nothing that screams 'Superhero' like so many other characters. She really only seems to be around because 1) She loves Reed... and 2) She loves her Brother. That's what I loved about the last cartoon series that made her all of that, but also an adventure thrill-seeker. Someone who is just excited to be a part of all the adventure that I never get from comic-Sue. Maybe it's always that go-to attitude of 'I just want a normal life and normal family and raise the kids in safety' that is the complete opposite of Superheroes. She needs to embrace the heroics and not resent them.

I think there might be a reluctance to have her do that because they put her in the "Mom" box over the years. She had a chance to be the focus more during DeFalco's run when Reed was presumed to be dead but then she still spent a lot of time looking for him, etc. Also, she's been too isolated over the years. For a while she had Alicia has her friend then once in a while we'd see her hanging out with Jan or She Hulk. Not much like that lately. I liked that unrevealed history of her being a SHIELD agent once in a while.

ABSOLUTELY! Doom is not anti-hero... he's not misunderstood... He's EVIL. He does evil things because he considers himself above such sundry terms. Cross Doom and pay the price.
Frankly because Reed believes the world needs Doom's intellect. How many times now has Doom saved the world or solved the problem that Reed couldn't? Yeah, he's crazy and evil and bound to turn on us... but we'll cross that bridge when it comes to it. If there comes a time when you need someone to face down Beyonder... Doom's your man.
Namor on the other hand? No reason not to fry that fish...

I think it's a bit overboard to say he's evil with a capital "E". If he were, then he would be a aligned with Mephisto instead of going up against him. I can't find the interview anymore but Waid once said that he would eat the head of a newborn baby like an apple if it meant he could prove to be Reed's better. Then she shows him skinning his former love Valeria. See, I think Waid doesn't get him at all. I think he's always had limits, maybe not a true code of honor but there were lines he didn't cross. Writers pick on a little thing like whether whether he lies or not. Go back to their first encounter and it is Reed that informs the reader that Doom doesn't lie. Again, inconsistency does creep in other the years. In Infamous Iron Man, Bendis does something interesting in that he implies that part of what we the reader and the MU characters know about Doom may be a deliberate performance. He tells RiRi that he could summon up a maniacal laugh if that would make her more comfortable. Even when he tries to act relatively normal, Amara tells him he can be very intimidating. It's to his benefit that he's perceived that way. Fear is how he prefers to inspire respect. He learned that from childhood and he's trying to unlearn it, but without much success. In the future, I hope they don't go back a version of Doom that is aligned with Waid's. He deserves to be more multi-faceted than that.

[Michael Watkins]

guh. can we try to keep race out of the discussion?

[phantom1592]

I think it's a bit overboard to say he's evil with a capital "E". If he were, then he would be a aligned with Mephisto instead of going up against him. I can't find the interview anymore but Waid once said that he would eat the head of a newborn baby like an apple if it meant he could prove to be Reed's better. Then she shows him skinning his former love Valeria. See, I think Waid doesn't get him at all. I think he's always had limits, maybe not a true code of honor but there were lines he didn't cross. Writers pick on a little thing like whether whether he lies or not. Go back to their first encounter and it is Reed that informs the reader that Doom doesn't lie. Again, inconsistency does creep in other the years. In Infamous Iron Man, Bendis does something interesting in that he implies that part of what we the reader and the MU characters know about Doom may be a deliberate performance. He tells RiRi that he could summon up a maniacal laugh if that would make her more comfortable. Even when he tries to act relatively normal, Amara tells him he can be very intimidating. It's to his benefit that he's perceived that way. Fear his how he prefers to inspire respect. He learned that from childhood and he's trying to unlearn it, but without much success. In the future, I hope they don't go back a version of Doom that is aligned with Waid's. He deserves to be more multi-faceted than that.

Doom's defining trait is arrogance and Pride. His 'code of honor' is that he doesn't need to lie he doesn't need to cheat. He is smart enough and clever enogh and powerful enough to beat you fair and square. However... still evil.

The problem with multi-faceted villains is that they are STILL villains. Doom may be able to be dealt with and believed if he says he'll do something... but there are still TONS of people that he's disintegrated over a minor slight or infraction. Anyone who impedes Dooms will... They're toast. That's evil. He may be doing evil for a greater cause... but it's still evil. His moral compass is completely screwed up and believes that the world revolves around him. I don't see him eating a baby or skinning his true love... because that's letting someone ELSE set the terms and Doom bows to no one. And considering that he's held infinite cosmic power more times than any other earthling... his boasts have merit... but even if he's right he's still evil.

Same with Magneto. Regardless of his motives or his over all goals... He's still the guy who massacres humans. He's crushed submarines, he's EMP'ed the whole earth killing innocent people in hospital's on life support. Waving his hand and saying 'I'll try to be good now...' doesn't negate all the evil he's already done. That's still his core character. If someone crosses him, he'll crush them because he has the power and they don't. He's homo superior and therefore they're better in every way...

[Michael Watkins]

I think it's a bit overboard to say he's evil with a capital "E". If he were, then he would be a aligned with Mephisto instead of going up against him.

his motives weren't all that altruistic. and he did barter with demons to gain revenge on someone. I don't think he's capital E evil. it's a banal evil grown out of his superiority complex.

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

The FF are primarily considered "dated" because of two things: 1. They're Stable. 2. They're White. Hear me out..... Because the FF are family first, no matter what changes are made to the lineup, things will always resettle with those four. Whereas most superhero teams you can take characters off the board permanently, or at least for a long time is because they maintain large rotating casts. Because they are a monoracial family unit, their appeal becomes limited in an increasingly diverse market where modern readers are looking for characters that look like themselves.

I don't think their race plays into things much, just look at X-Men blue which is an all-white team that's apart of Marvel most diverse franchise, yet they somehow managed to make the all white... Anyway, the FF is my favorite team and I'm black, the race of this particular team doesn't bother me much.

I do agree that their set roster is a limitation of the team, but Hickman's Future Foundation was a great way to make the team bigger without losing the family aspect. It was also an opportunity to diversify the team more. Unfortunately, the Foundation was reduced in importance during subsequent runs which is something else that needs to change.

Hickman's Future Foundation is to appear in the Marvel Cinematic Universe then

[MichaelC]

Someone used up their 20th level necromancer spell-slot.

[Triniking1234]

Someone used up their 20th level necromancer spell-slot.

2017?!? Bruh.

Seeing this thread again is putting me in a bad mood.

[CaptCleghorn]

Someone used up their 20th level necromancer spell-slot.

They made the roll, so there's nothing we can do about it.

[The Overlord]

There've been a lot of those. For one thing, Stan and Jack were in the forefront in getting away from the typical done in one issues that were typical from the 40's, 50's and early 1960s. I think the one arc that I really liked when I first started reading the Fantastic Four was the one where the Frightful Four manage to defeat the Fantastic Four and then leave them powerless after that. In the meantime, Doom realizes that Richards played him big time in a FF annual #2 story where Reed used his encephalogun gizmo to make him believe that he had killed Reed. So just when the FF are powerless, Doom heads for NYC to get his revenge. Throw in a guest shot by Daredevil and you have a classic. So this story played out over quite a few issues for those times Fantastic Four annual #2 and Fantastic Four #38-43 and the Frightful Four return for a rematch against the team, using Ben against them. Very few titles were doing that kind of storytelling. Many like the Galactus trilogy but I like this one a shade better. In fact I find it to be in your iconic category. This was for me the start of Marvel's long uphill march towards supplanting DC's "throne"

Here's a few more
There's another arc that was collected in a HC called the Overthrow of Doom which is about a 10 issue arc by Marv Wolfman going from around FF #190-200
Mark Waid's Unthinkable (not a personal fave of mine however)
As mentioned earlier Hickman's Secret Wars is an FF- centric story. I'd try out the entire Hickman run but I guess the Council of Reeds was one of my favorites and it leads up to the final confrontation with the Mad Celestials.
John Byrne's run has some nice individual issues like FF #236 or Doom's solo story in FF#258 where the FF don't even appear. But it as part of an arc in #259-260 that ends with a battle between the Silver Surfer and Galactus

This thread has already been brought by necromancy, but I you brought up something important by bringing up the Frightful Four.

Why are the Frightful Four interesting at this point? Why are say Wizard and Trapster interesting villains? What is their motivation for being villains?

It's not just that the FF's rogues is overused, it's that besides Doom, Galactus and maybe Annihilius, most of them have not evolved since the 60s and the FF seems have outgrown them.

Wizard and Trapster never seem to evolve past the 60s, Red Ghost is a Cold War relic, a lot of the villains seem like old dogs who never learn new tricks. They don't seem like a threat to the FF anymore and their characterization has become stale a long time ago.

Upgrade these villains to be bigger threats or give them some actual characterization or have them not be Reed's enemy and have them have a rivalry with Sue, Torch or Thing. Is there any reason Wizard has to be Reed's personal enemy?

[Darkshadow]

This thread has already been brought by necromancy, but I you brought up something important by bringing up the Frightful Four.

Why are the Frightful Four interesting at this point? Why are say Wizard and Trapster interesting villains? What is their motivation for being villains?

It's not just that the FF's rogues is overused, it's that besides Doom, Galactus and maybe Annihilius, most of them have not evolved since the 60s and the FF seems have outgrown them.

Wizard and Trapster never seem to evolve past the 60s, Red Ghost is a Cold War relic, a lot of the villains seem like old dogs who never learn new tricks. They don't seem like a threat to the FF anymore and their characterization has become stale a long time ago.

Upgrade these villains to be bigger threats or give them some actual characterization or have them not be Reed's enemy and have them have a rivalry with Sue, Torch or Thing. Is there any reason Wizard has to be Reed's personal enemy?

For some time, Wizard was Torch's rival. That is definitely worth a revisit, IMO.