Why are the Fantastic Four called "dated"?

[Crimz]

The Fantastic Four aren't the only characters created in the 60's, some were even created before then (Namor, Captain America, Jim Hammond). Yet they are the only ones who are usually called "dated" or "boring". Why is that?



I personally think the main problem is that writers are so beholden to the Lee/Kirby run that they don't don't do what the FF are best at. Innovating. This leads to the same stories and villains cropping up again and again in different forms. It also leads to my point: Reed Richards is often the only important character.

Reed is the sole driving force for any endeavor the team goes on. When was the last time, if ever, have the others said lets go here or I want to investigate this? It's incredibly rare and because he is the focus of the adventure he is usually the focus of the story, there are several FF villains that consider Reed and only him their rival and the others are just ancillary. There barely any villains that consider Ben, Sue or Johnny their personal enemy. When you think about it, if they didn't have their powers what would be the point of them as a team? Reed would still be the leader, scientist, inventor and explorer. But the others:

Ben - Would be Reeds muscle, a job that centers around Reed and could be done by anyone. What would be Ben's motivation without Reed or his powers? What does he want to do? If his motivations surround Reed then he is nothing more than a support character. His piloting skills, the one motivation that is all about Ben, barely come up nowadays.

Johnny - Has no reason to be on the team as he would provide nothing. There was potential with him being a mechanic, but that is eclipsed by Reed's inventing and fixing everything (which shouldn't be Reed's field... but comics I guess) which makes Johnny superfluous.

Sue - Without her powers she has the least reason to be on the team. She provides nothing. Her role is the same as it's been since her Invisible Girl days: Reed's girlfriend turned wife.

The Fantastic Four isn't an equal team and never has been. You can tell by how Reed treats the others as he hides things from them constantly that he doesn't consider them his equals and honestly, they aren't. Reed has the most character arcs and chances to grow which is one of the most important aspects if stories - character growth. They are: being more humble, learning to value his family over work, learning that he can't solve everything (especially alone) and to stop hiding things from the others. These themes are repeated over different runs, but they are still more than the others. Ben's was to accept him being the Thing, Johnny's was to grow up and Sue was to be more confident in herself (with Malice sometimes thrown in for good measure). Ben and Sue have already overcame these and are now left with nothing left to grow from, while Johnny is still in cycle of growing up then reverting with the next writer.

This needs to change. This isn't a team, it's a glorified Reed solo and it doesn't work in this day and age anymore. The runs considered the best outside of the original Lee/Kirby (Byrne and Hickman) either took the focus off Reed and/or made the book tackle grand concepts again that weren't a repeat of the original run. I love the Lee/Kirby run and what it did for comics, but that run was definitely a product of it's time and things need to change with characters. It's called the Fantastic Four, yet a lot of the time it feels like it's just Mr. fantastic.

TLDR - I think writers shouldn't be so cautious to change things because of Lee/Kirby's legacy. Also, the focus needs to be taken off Reed and distributed equally among members.

[JackDaw]

To some extent because subsequent writers...no doubt under "corporate mandate"...have forgotten one of the greatest lessons in that first great Lee/Kirby run: move the story forward. Show the characters developing, ageing a bit, marrying, having a kids.

It all started to come off the rails when "Marvel" decided to not age the kids.

When the four come back what I suspect we'll see is "groundhog day". A new origin when somebody tries to make the original origin a bit more compatible with present day. It'll be most likely a grand waste of time...nothing wrong with the original origin...at some unspecified time, the four flew into space and got exposed to cosmic energy. If you do update...just do it in first two pages, then crack on with the new stuff.

What I'd really like to see when it comes back is a very good writer given a long run with the specific brief: develop the Future Foundation, and start ageing Franklin and Val. To be honest I wouldn't mind it being set in near future, with Franklin around 15 and Val 12 already. That way the writer could just get on with story he wants to tell without bothering with any of the "exciting" company wide mega events that one or two of us are starting to find a bit tedious.

[The BaRoN]

MCU fanboys say this, anyone who actually read FF knows its lies.

[dragonmp93]

It's only a excuse to defend DisMarvel.

[Iron Maiden]

It's only a excuse to defend DisMarvel.

Bull.....I've seen remarks about the FF being dated here on CBR BEFORE Disney bought Marvel.

[JackDaw]

TLDR - I think writers shouldn't be so cautious to change things because of Lee/Kirby's legacy. Also, the focus needs to be taken off Reed and distributed equally among members.

I think you make an excellent point about balancing up the team.

It would be quite a challenge if Marvel stick to classic line that Reed is omni-competent. If that handicap stands, maybe best way forward would be to take away his powers (other than super intelligence) completely, so he's dependent on other three when exploring other worldly environments, etc.

But does that omni-competence really need to stand?? It's really not remotely realistic, and it weakens the ethos of family and teamwork immeasurably. Just make Reed a bit more pleasant, a lot more family focussed...and much more impractical and less worldly wise. That allows the others to contribute a lot more fully:

Ben and Johny...make them the practical engineers that put together Reed's machines, and let them understand far better than Reed himself how to physically put together and repair machines. If their flying craft breaks down it should Ben and John who know how to get spanners out and repair it.

Ben..establish that he's the pilot not just because he likes doing it, but because he's miles better at doing it than the other three. Extend that ability to make him the best operator of complex machinery.

Johny: make him Future Foundation field leader on any of their big trips/ missions.

Sue: make her the group's diplomat and linguist. And make her better than Reed at biological sciences, leaving Reed pre-eminent in physics, and the related sciences (e.g.astronomy, chemistry).

But the detail doesn't matter...as long as the team is made so members can contribute more equally.

[Digifiend]

Sue isn't usually a scientist at all is she? At least, not in 616. I suppose she could take lessons from Mockingbird though - Bobbi seems to be the Marvel Universe's new go-to biochemistry expert.

[pageturner]

Sue isn't usually a scientist at all is she? At least, not in 616. I suppose she could take lessons from Mockingbird though - Bobbi seems to be the Marvel Universe's new go-to biochemistry expert.

I guess she is with Hank well being hank and Beast being elevated to super scientist of all fields in the tony/reed mold. Bobbi and spider are go to.

[pageturner]

The FF are dated in the point that the team has not really evolved. Any lineup changes have resulted in resets before long. That does not mean they can't be done well, but they can be looked at as old hat.

[Carabas]

MCU fanboys say this, anyone who actually read FF knows its lies.

It's only a excuse to defend DisMarvel.

Give it a rest, would you please?

We're not interested in yet another sodding MCU versus Fox vendetta thread.

Or even talking about the movies at all...

[Iron Maiden]

Sue isn't usually a scientist at all is she? At least, not in 616. I suppose she could take lessons from Mockingbird though - Bobbi seems to be the Marvel Universe's new go-to biochemistry expert.

Fraction made a sudden and unsupported change in her status giving her the title of "doctor" . I'd have to look it up to see which issue that happened. I found it annoying because it would have been better to just announce that she is going back to get her degree or something like that. It just came out of nowhere.

[beetee]

The FF are primarily considered "dated" because of two things: 1. They're Stable. 2. They're White. Hear me out..... Because the FF are family first, no matter what changes are made to the lineup, things will always resettle with those four. Whereas most superhero teams you can take characters off the board permanently, or at least for a long time is because they maintain large rotating casts. Because they are a monoracial family unit, their appeal becomes limited in an increasingly diverse market where modern readers are looking for characters that look like themselves.

[Crimz]

I think you make an excellent point about balancing up the team.

It would be quite a challenge if Marvel stick to classic line that Reed is omni-competent. If that handicap stands, maybe best way forward would be to take away his powers (other than super intelligence) completely, so he's dependent on other three when exploring other worldly environments, etc.

But does that omni-competence really need to stand?? It's really not remotely realistic, and it weakens the ethos of family and teamwork immeasurably. Just make Reed a bit more pleasant, a lot more family focussed...and much more impractical and less worldly wise. That allows the others to contribute a lot more fully:

Ben and Johny...make them the practical engineers that put together Reed's machines, and let them understand far better than Reed himself how to physically put together and repair machines. If their flying craft breaks down it should Ben and John who know how to get spanners out and repair it.

Ben..establish that he's the pilot not just because he likes doing it, but because he's miles better at doing it than the other three. Extend that ability to make him the best operator of complex machinery.

Johny: make him Future Foundation field leader on any of their big trips/ missions.

Sue: make her the group's diplomat and linguist. And make her better than Reed at biological sciences, leaving Reed pre-eminent in physics, and the related sciences (e.g.astronomy, chemistry).

But the detail doesn't matter...as long as the team is made so members can contribute more equally.

Yeah the others need to be more involved in the scientific aspects of the team. It's a science team with only one member who actually does anything scientific...

Fraction made a sudden and unsupported change in her status giving her the title of "doctor" . I'd have to look it up to see which issue that happened. I found it annoying because it would have been better to just announce that she is going back to get her degree or something like that. It just came out of nowhere.

Yeah it was a doctorate that came out of nowhere and it wasn't even specified what field it was. A story of her going back to school at later age, the nerves, the balancing of being a parent and superhero would all be more interesting and actually give her something to do. I would of also like the field to be in medicine as that's what the team is missing.

[Crimz]

The FF are primarily considered "dated" because of two things: 1. They're Stable. 2. They're White. Hear me out..... Because the FF are family first, no matter what changes are made to the lineup, things will always resettle with those four. Whereas most superhero teams you can take characters off the board permanently, or at least for a long time is because they maintain large rotating casts. Because they are a monoracial family unit, their appeal becomes limited in an increasingly diverse market where modern readers are looking for characters that look like themselves.

I don't think their race plays into things much, just look at X-Men blue which is an all-white team that's apart of Marvel most diverse franchise, yet they somehow managed to make the all white... Anyway, the FF is my favorite team and I'm black, the race of this particular team doesn't bother me much.

I do agree that their set roster is a limitation of the team, but Hickman's Future Foundation was a great way to make the team bigger without losing the family aspect. It was also an opportunity to diversify the team more. Unfortunately, the Foundation was reduced in importance during subsequent runs which is something else that needs to change.

[donpricetag]

The FF are primarily considered "dated" because of two things: 1. They're Stable. 2. They're White. Hear me out..... Because the FF are family first, no matter what changes are made to the lineup, things will always resettle with those four. Whereas most superhero teams you can take characters off the board permanently, or at least for a long time is because they maintain large rotating casts. Because they are a monoracial family unit, their appeal becomes limited in an increasingly diverse market where modern readers are looking for characters that look like themselves.

Agreed. Marketing and studies tell Marvel (well its how they interpret the info) that certain tropes like "family" and "commitment" dont resonate with readers anymore (hell, is there any romance or love reall left in Marvel thats not some sort of statement or publicity stunt political stance?). Its the same reason Peter Parker and MJ were dissolved in the proper MU (to make him more relatable and young), Cyclops and Jean were seperated. Can you think of a single family unit in the forefront of Marvel anymore? Only one that comes to mind for me are Luke Cage and Jessica Jones but they wouldnt dare try to break that up. It's too progressive. Just my opinion of course. How I see it's been going for a while now.