Why are the Fantastic Four called "dated"?

[Iron Maiden]

you don't really believe that, do you?

Yeah....she hasn't been seen since what, issue 3? She was certainly attracted at first. But look how things got messed up just by her being associated with him. She was told to leave Cambridge (even though he pulled some strings to get her set up there) and her home got trashed. She found him to be a bit lost himself. She couldn't accept his reasons for wanting to redeem himself either, even if he did say he was "working on it"

[Coin Biter]

So far as Mags and Doom are concerned, essentially, it makes more sense to change a character who was portrayed as a loony terrorist and world conquerer into a more sympathetic extremist who was motivated by an attempt to alleviate suffering, than to change someone who evokes images of 20th century Central/Eastern European dictators into a more benign figure.

It reminds me of that insane romantic comedy I once caught a few minutes of, which had Timothy Dalton as the dictator of "Slovetzia", complete with Stalinesque moustache, entering into rom com shenanigans with Fran Drescher. I guess it was inspired by films like The Prince and the Showgirl but the whole thing was surreal (as well as, of course, very very bad).

Also, Silver Age Doom was simply a much more interesting character than Silver Age Mags, one of the craziest and least redeemable of Marvel 60s villains, and therefore didn't need radical changes.

[JasonEsta]

Comics have tendency to have their villains go through a reform if they are popular enough or if a writer decides to be a sort of advocate. Medusa started out as an FF foe but not long after her intro she was changed. Now she and the Inhumans are long time allies of the FF. And I believe amnesia was eventually used in her example also. Sandman was a hero for a while until Byrne decided he didn't like it. Doom and Magneto are similar in the respect that they are higher up the power scale. Their backgrounds are similar --- both are from an ethnic group that has been persecuted. Doubly so with Magneto because he is a mutant.
Although the way writers deal with Doom it's as if he has amnesia about being a Roma. One suspects Marvel needs Doom to be a villain more than they need Magneto to be one. But writers have gone back and forth with him at times also.

Rumors are that during Legacy Doom may return to being a villain but I would think that would be a mistake. The ending of SW was the perfect way to solve the Doom problem for the MU. Reed simply restored his face and made him face his insecurities. IMO for him to go back to being his old bombastic self would be unrealistic. He already conquered all reality (or most of it ) and found himself to be lacking. If he does go revert to his old habits, their should be a compelling reason.

Magneto is the most complex villain in marvel. You've seen the animated shows. Clearly influenced by Claremont. Magneto's ends justify the means crusade is so compelling because he was right and he's charismatic in the way he presents it all. In the shows, Magneto always ends up doing the "right thing because he's not supposed to be evil. His parents being killed and his daughter dying twisted his soul.

[Carabas]

Magneto is the most complex villain in marvel. You've seen the animated shows. Clearly influenced by Claremont. Magneto's ends justify the means crusade is so compelling because he was right and he's charismatic in the way he presents it all. In the shows, Magneto always ends up doing the "right thing because he's not supposed to be evil. His parents being killed and his daughter dying twisted his soul.

They went a bit too far. He's not a villain anymore. And fans get upset when you mention he used to be.

[Agent Z]

I agree. Not that I necessarily dislike morally gray anti-villains. But I sometimes feel like they're the modern equivalent of the 90's anti-heroes. Much Iike the heroes in the 90's had to be dark, violent and preferably carry big guns, villains these days have to have some noble intention that makes them do questionable things. I find that boring.

That sort of thing obviously works for some characters. Magneto is a great character because he was turned into a well-intentioned extremist by Claremont. However, I like Doom when he's the perfect example of a theatrical, larger-than-life old school villain. Noble intentions and moral ambiquity add nothing to the character, IMO. If anything, they actually make him less entertaining.

Not all of them are like this. Not even most of them are like this. The ones that are just stand out more.

[Carabas]

Not all of them are like this. Not even most of them are like this. The ones that are just stand out more.

I find it is mostly old villains that suffer from this.
IMO because the older a character is, the harder it becomes to tell stories about it without going into a completely different direction.

[Agent Z]

I find it is mostly old villains that suffer from this.
IMO because the older a character is, the harder it becomes to tell stories about it without going into a completely different direction.

Sometimes going in a completely different direction might be for the best.

The thing about Doom being depicted as pure evil is it gets into the problem of why don't the FF just kill him. Sue certainly doesn't have a problem with ending people when the situation calls for it. She killed an Eternal.

[Iron Maiden]

Sometimes going in a completely different direction might be for the best.

The thing about Doom being depicted as pure evil is it gets into the problem of why don't the FF just kill him. Sue certainly doesn't have a problem with ending people when the situation calls for it. She killed an Eternal.

I'm not sure if she killed an Eternal...IIRC wasn't it really hollow inside?

Ben probably would have killed Doom way back in FF #40 but Reed stopped him, which is how he knows there's something up with the Reed he meets in Infamous Iron Man. I doubt Stan would write a story like that anyway. I think if there is one thing you can say about the Stan Lee era is that he didn't go for extreme vigilante justice. Then as he likes to explain these days he doesn't feel Doom is a villain. He did give him that plot armor by making him the ruler of Latveria so he could invoke diplomatic immunity. Although at times I don't think Stan was really sure how that works in the RW. He could have been expelled I suppose.

Stan and Jack do sort of address the issue of nurture vs nature and I don't think the origin is saying that Doom was born evil. Some might feel that he is "tainted" by the acts of his mother but that doesn't get revealed until much later. The origin is vague about her death.

But to get back to the Fantastic Four being dated and the sitcom business. Everyone here seems to bring it up as a negative when it is opposite the cliche of the hero as the loner. The standard was, and still seems to be, is that the typical hero is single with very few having stable, ongoing relationships. An extremely high number have been orphaned or have single parent/guardian backgrounds. If anything, the family structure makes the Fantastic Four more unique.

[CaptCleghorn]

If anything, the family structure makes the Fantastic Four more unique.

And there it is in a nutshell. The aspect of the FF that makes them mainstream suburban middle class America is what creates their part of superhero diversity.

[Michael Watkins]

Sometimes going in a completely different direction might be for the best.

The thing about Doom being depicted as pure evil is it gets into the problem of why don't the FF just kill him. Sue certainly doesn't have a problem with ending people when the situation calls for it. She killed an Eternal.

Doom's overpowered enough that this isn't a concern.

[Agent Z]

Doom's overpowered enough that this isn't a concern.

So are at least two members of the team. Doom even said Sue's powers could beat his tech.

[Iron Maiden]

So are at least two members of the team. Doom even said Sue's powers could beat his tech.

During Axis IIRC she went to Latveria to get Valeria to come back. She left the family at the end of Fraction's run (forgot why....some argument between Reed and Sue maybe)

She defeated him one on one but he held back when he was able to detect that Malice had taken over. She did find away to microscopicly pierce the chinks his armor. But the fight frightened Val and she was a afraid of Sue's Malice personality.

[Michael Watkins]

So are at least two members of the team. Doom even said Sue's powers could beat his tech.

Doom killed Sue.

[phantom1592]

Another issue is that many have said the FF's role is innovation, exploration and discovering new things. But many writers who come on to the book seem restrained by the great Lee/Kirby run that they don't bring anything new to the franchise. The FF need new things to happen to them, it's a book that has to have new places and concepts as that's what it's all about. No more fighting the Mole Man for the thousandth time.

I see a lot of people (myself included) suggest that exploration is the key to FF... but when HAS it been? I've been reading off and on since the 80's and it seems like they've never really DONE anything like that. Which is what I think the problem with them are. Most writers focus so heavily on how they are the FIRST marvel Team, the first family of Marvel. They are the most experienced, most intelligent... if you ever need anything sciencey done... you go to the FF. They have almost always had the 'been there, seen that' attitude that it's hard to go back and write them as really exploring or learning ANYTHING new without first 'insulting the history' of the characters. it's a very delicate tightrope, but 'exploration' has been on the backburner since the Lee/Kirby days. It's like they took them so far, that nobody knows what to next....

Don't get me wrong she's arguably the most powerful, but I see the FF as a team that would still explore and go on wacky adventures with or without their powers. I hate to admit it but Sue is the only one who has no role on the team if we didn't include powers. Which is why I believe she should go back to school and train to be a doctor/surgeon.

yeah, Sue is weak sauce. They try so hard to make her fit, but nothing really works. They've upped her powers, focused on her protective 'mom' mode. But nothing that screams 'Superhero' like so many other characters. She really only seems to be around because 1) She loves Reed... and 2) She loves her Brother. That's what I loved about the last cartoon series that made her all of that, but also an adventure thrill-seeker. Someone who is just excited to be a part of all the adventure that I never get from comic-Sue. Maybe it's always that go-to attitude of 'I just want a normal life and normal family and raise the kids in safety' that is the complete opposite of Superheroes. She needs to embrace the heroics and not resent them.

See, I like my villains properly villainous, and I never bought into Doom's claims of being noble and honourable. He's a deluded maniac who lies to himself to feel better about what he does.

ABSOLUTELY! Doom is not anti-hero... he's not misunderstood... He's EVIL. He does evil things because he considers himself above such sundry terms. Cross Doom and pay the price.

I still say that the FF need a shake-up. Other than Hickman's run, the title has not done that well for a long time. Either add a 5th or even 6th permanent member or.

They really did... Franklin and Valeria are both essentially parts of the book for good or ill. the 4 are really 6 since they keep finding ways to push them into the spotlight.

Sometimes going in a completely different direction might be for the best.

The thing about Doom being depicted as pure evil is it gets into the problem of why don't the FF just kill him. Sue certainly doesn't have a problem with ending people when the situation calls for it. She killed an Eternal.

Frankly because Reed believes the world needs Doom's intellect. How many times now has Doom saved the world or solved the problem that Reed couldn't? Yeah, he's crazy and evil and bound to turn on us... but we'll cross that bridge when it comes to it. If there comes a time when you need someone to face down Beyonder... Doom's your man.

Namor on the other hand? No reason not to fry that fish...

[mr_crisp]

They're dated because they are all heterosexual and white.