Why are the Fantastic Four called "dated"?

[Iron Maiden]

Yeah the others need to be more involved in the scientific aspects of the team. It's a science team with only one member who actually does anything scientific...

Yeah it was a doctorate that came out of nowhere and it wasn't even specified what field it was. A story of her going back to school at later age, the nerves, the balancing of being a parent and superhero would all be more interesting and actually give her something to do. I would of also like the field to be in medicine as that's what the team is missing.

It would have been a great journey for Sue to take after many years where it seemed like she was taking care of everyone else. Sometimes I think it would be better for the Fantastic Four if we just accept that Image's Heroes Reborn origin for the Fantastic Four should be accepted as canon. After all, Reed's motives for stealing the space ship was to beat those dirty Commies to space.

I agree with your idea that Sue should have a degree in medicine. Her father Dr Franklin Storm was a surgeon after all.

Do you remember those other realities the FF visited in the lead up to the final confrontation between Abraxas and Galactus? One version Sue was a doctor who IIRC had more of a family practice. Her powers make her a natural for medicine. She used them to help diagnosis patients because she could turn outer layers of skin or muscle invisible to detect broken bones, etc.

I don't understand why no one has done much with the Future Foundation in these years since Hickman left. They were the best innovation to the FF in many a year.

[ChrisIII]

Maybe they can do more with the Invisible Woman's invisiblity power? Since they introduced her forcefields she's pretty much used that ability far more. Maybe have her do more work with SHIELD like in time runs out?

[Zero Hunter]

See I would hate if Sue was suddenly a doctor or scientist. It is lazy. That is not something you can just wake up one day and suddenly be. I would much rather see her as the one who runs the business than being made a doctor out of no where. It would make sense with Reed always having his head stuck in some gizmo or another that she would have to have stepped up and taken the reigns with the business side of the FF.

[nnelg]

They are called dated by people that don't like them and likely never liked them. It's like how people complained about the X-men. More than likely didn't read the title at all.

[Crimz]

It would have been a great journey for Sue to take after many years where it seemed like she was taking care of everyone else. Sometimes I think it would be better for the Fantastic Four if we just accept that Image's Heroes Reborn origin for the Fantastic Four should be accepted as canon. After all, Reed's motives for stealing the space ship was to beat those dirty Commies to space.

I agree with your idea that Sue should have a degree in medicine. Her father Dr Franklin Storm was a surgeon after all.

Do you remember those other realities the FF visited in the lead up to the final confrontation between Abraxas and Galactus? One version Sue was a doctor who IIRC had more of a family practice. Her powers make her a natural for medicine. She used them to help diagnosis patients because she could turn outer layers of skin or muscle invisible to detect broken bones, etc.

I don't understand why no one has done much with the Future Foundation in these years since Hickman left. They were the best innovation to the FF in many a year.

That sounds really cool, I haven't read that story yet. I hope a writer sends her back to college, it would be a great way to elevate the character.

Whoever is on the book when they return needs carry on the Future Foundation concept instead of ignoring it.

See I would hate if Sue was suddenly a doctor or scientist. It is lazy. That is not something you can just wake up one day and suddenly be. I would much rather see her as the one who runs the business than being made a doctor out of no where. It would make sense with Reed always having his head stuck in some gizmo or another that she would have to have stepped up and taken the reigns with the business side of the FF.

No one has said they want her to magically be a doctor one day, as you said that's lazy and ridiculous. What is wanted is for her to go back to school and train to be a doctor/surgeon. She had to sacrifice going to college to raise Johnny, then later become a superhero and later a mother. Her going back to school would be something she finally does for herself instead of in service of her family or saving the world. The medicinal profession fits best because of her personality of wanting to help and it's the family business, as her father was one of the best surgeons in the US. It also has the bonus of having a set time-frame to complete the training which would age up Franklin and Valeria organically, as many want them to be older.

[JackDaw]

See I would hate if Sue was suddenly a doctor or scientist. It is lazy. That is not something you can just wake up one day and suddenly be. I would much rather see her as the one who runs the business than being made a doctor out of no where. It would make sense with Reed always having his head stuck in some gizmo or another that she would have to have stepped up and taken the reigns with the business side of the FF.

But it's comics. There are all sorts of ways that Sue..or anybody...can quickly absorb new knowledge or display some new power. And all sorts of ways Reed can lose some of his omni-competence.

If something like that isn't done to Sue, Ben, Johnny...then how is team ever going to become more equal contributors?

Deep down I think the Reed centred story arcs reached their zenith in the Hickman run, and it's time to see the others get their share of the lime light.

[CaptCleghorn]

The feeling that the FF had become the Reed Richards and Family series is valid. The structure Stan Lee used for the cast was straight out of DC's science heroes Rip Hunter or the Sea Devils. A scientist who was the star, his girlfriend, her kid brother and the scientist's tough buddy. Corky Baxter isn't on Legends of Tomorrow, is he?

The annoying tendency of writers to reset Johnny's maturity level or Reed's lack of family involvement adds to this. If writer A gives a character development, the next writer should take the character's growth and go with that. No retweeting a kid's first steps. Same goes for all of the FF. Let Johnny grow up and make Franklin the girl crazy teenager. But this idea is nothing new here.

The Richards are a traditional nuclear family. In a medium where long lost kids appear as teenagers and grow to adulthood in an issue and who's future selves show up, a traditional nuclear family should still exist in even the most diverse world. Challenge the marriage with plot twists, sure. But what differentiates the FF from every other team (and hero book) out there is family. Mixing the mundane and cosmic is what makes the book. Not just one of them, BOTH OF THEM. Yes, I shouted that.

The FF's white. Yep. I freely admit there could be more diversity in the FF's supporting cast. Even though the FF's structure was defined in the 1950s, they're now well into the 21st century. No reason the next Alyssa Moy or Dorrie Evans can't be black or Asian. No reason Johnny can't have a bisexual fling, either.

Why do we look at Byrne and Hickman and love their work so much more than the other writers' work? They didn't just ape Lee and Kirby, they stretched and expanded on the premise. The next writer needs to take a quantum leap into the next generation with a truly modern family. It's got to be different. I love the FF. I bought them regularly for well over 40 years and I will buy them probably regardless. But if Marvel wants a book that gets accolades and sales, they need to restrike the intensity and innovation that the original series had in the 60s.

Many franchises have survived over decades and even centuries. But they've managed to adapt and grow. The FF needs to adapt and grow because more of the same, as much as many of us would like it, won't be more than a mid-level seller in this day and age.

[autbey]

They are called dated by people that don't like them and likely never liked them. It's like how people complained about the X-men. More than likely didn't read the title at all.

And these people feel they are validated because of how Marvel treats the property.

[Sutekh]

See I would hate if Sue was suddenly a doctor or scientist. It is lazy. That is not something you can just wake up one day and suddenly be. I would much rather see her as the one who runs the business than being made a doctor out of no where. It would make sense with Reed always having his head stuck in some gizmo or another that she would have to have stepped up and taken the reigns with the business side of the FF.

Agreed. Reed is always going to be the uber-scientist. It's his thing. Making Sue *also* a scientist of some sort just means that she's been 'promoted' to being always-less-than-Reed, allowed to dabble in the area in which is always going to be the undisputed master, so that even when she does accomplish something, it's going to be something Reed could have done faster or better if he'd bothered to do it at all (and not done something even more clever).

Expanding her into an area that Reed has *zero* investment in, like running the business, seems 100% a better choice.

As for the team being dated, feh. The Avengers, X-Men, Justice League, etc. are all dated (and founded by a bunch of white guys, with starting lineups that are more or less inflexible), and they get by fine.

A family being 'too stable?' Pshaw. Only to someone who has never been part of a family, maybe. Families are not static. New people are born (or adopted) into it. New people are married into it. Sometimes people die out of it. Other times they divorce out of it. Sometimes they just grow up and grow apart, and rarely see each other again, except once a year, or even less frequently, even in amicable situations, just because they live a country (or countries) apart, and are starting their own families.

These are just excuses.

[Sighphi]

they had to come up with a word to constantly use to get by the argument quickly.

THat's the only reason.

[Iron Maiden]

The feeling that the FF had become the Reed Richards and Family series is valid. The structure Stan Lee used for the cast was straight out of DC's science heroes Rip Hunter or the Sea Devils. A scientist who was the star, his girlfriend, her kid brother and the scientist's tough buddy. Corky Baxter isn't on Legends of Tomorrow, is he?

The annoying tendency of writers to reset Johnny's maturity level or Reed's lack of family involvement adds to this. If writer A gives a character development, the next writer should take the character's growth and go with that. No retweeting a kid's first steps. Same goes for all of the FF. Let Johnny grow up and make Franklin the girl crazy teenager. But this idea is nothing new here.

The Richards are a traditional nuclear family. In a medium where long lost kids appear as teenagers and grow to adulthood in an issue and who's future selves show up, a traditional nuclear family should still exist in even the most diverse world. Challenge the marriage with plot twists, sure. But what differentiates the FF from every other team (and hero book) out there is family. Mixing the mundane and cosmic is what makes the book. Not just one of them, BOTH OF THEM. Yes, I shouted that.

The FF's white. Yep. I freely admit there could be more diversity in the FF's supporting cast. Even though the FF's structure was defined in the 1950s, they're now well into the 21st century. No reason the next Alyssa Moy or Dorrie Evans can't be black or Asian. No reason Johnny can't have a bisexual fling, either.

Why do we look at Byrne and Hickman and love their work so much more than the other writers' work? They didn't just ape Lee and Kirby, they stretched and expanded on the premise. The next writer needs to take a quantum leap into the next generation with a truly modern family. It's got to be different. I love the FF. I bought them regularly for well over 40 years and I will buy them probably regardless. But if Marvel wants a book that gets accolades and sales, they need to restrike the intensity and innovation that the original series had in the 60s.

Many franchises have survived over decades and even centuries. But they've managed to adapt and grow. The FF needs to adapt and grow because more of the same, as much as many of us would like it, won't be more than a mid-level seller in this day and age.

I think the Fantastic Four can be a top seller but I would hate to see it rely on a gimmick like the death bag issue with the Torch's death. Or the 9 cent issue to kick off Waid's run that pushed out about 700,000 comics to retailers. I'm not going to post my probably infamous sales chart in this thread but I think if they can stay in the top 40 titles that is an accomplishment. There is so much out there to compete with for both DC and Marvel. You have the Walking Dead rising up the sales charts and other indy titles. I'd like to see Marvel put together a creative team to really jump start things in a new direction like Hickman did, with various artists. Could they lure him back and if they did, can he hit the right notes again? I still think I'd like to see Priest take a shot at it.

As for Johnny's bisexual fling, ehhhh I'd have to say no to that. It's gimmicky and I just don't see it.

[Crimz]

Agreed. Reed is always going to be the uber-scientist. It's his thing. Making Sue *also* a scientist of some sort just means that she's been 'promoted' to being always-less-than-Reed, allowed to dabble in the area in which is always going to be the undisputed master, so that even when she does accomplish something, it's going to be something Reed could have done faster or better if he'd bothered to do it at all (and not done something even more clever).

Expanding her into an area that Reed has *zero* investment in, like running the business, seems 100% a better choice.

As for the team being dated, feh. The Avengers, X-Men, Justice League, etc. are all dated (and founded by a bunch of white guys, with starting lineups that are more or less inflexible), and they get by fine.

A family being 'too stable?' Pshaw. Only to someone who has never been part of a family, maybe. Families are not static. New people are born (or adopted) into it. New people are married into it. Sometimes people die out of it. Other times they divorce out of it. Sometimes they just grow up and grow apart, and rarely see each other again, except once a year, or even less frequently, even in amicable situations, just because they live a country (or countries) apart, and are starting their own families.

These are just excuses.

I also don't like the idea of making Sue a scientist. She'll never be as good as Reed because his whole thing is being the smartest scientist.

However, her going into the medical field does not step on Reed's toes at all. Reed isn't proficient in medicine, he doesn't know how to operate on someone or properly diagnose an treat illnesses. When a member of team is seriously hurt you see them in the hospital, not Reed's lab. Also a doctor/surgeon (mainly doctor) is a people profession where you have to interact with a lot of people and be good with them, something that Reed is also bad at. She wouldn't be a scientist, she would be a doctor. I can even see her teasing Reed that she's an actual doctor

Being in charge of the business is cool, but it still separates from the team when they are adventuring which is the thing they should do the most. There'd be no reason for someone with that role to be on the team, they'd be much suited to straying in an office. Her being a doctor would be a crucial role for an adventuring team that goes to places where the nearest hospital is light-years away. The team should of had Sue in the medical role years ago.

[Sutekh]

Agreed. Marketing and studies tell Marvel (well its how they interpret the info) that certain tropes like "family" and "commitment" dont resonate with readers anymore (hell, is there any romance or love reall left in Marvel thats not some sort of statement or publicity stunt political stance?). Its the same reason Peter Parker and MJ were dissolved in the proper MU (to make him more relatable and young), Cyclops and Jean were seperated. Can you think of a single family unit in the forefront of Marvel anymore? Only one that comes to mind for me are Luke Cage and Jessica Jones but they wouldnt dare try to break that up. It's too progressive. Just my opinion of course. How I see it's been going for a while now.

I try to sing la-la-la and ignore it, but yeah, if you're Spider-Man or Carol Danvers or Dr. Strange, you cannot have a 'boring' stable relationship or marriage, but if the relationship is multi-racial (Luke and Jessica) or same-gender (Teddy and Billy) or *both* (Northstar and Kyle), it seems like your relationship has some sort of (limited) protected status, because Marvel does not want to open that can of worms. (Even if, technically, they are already doing so if they are holding these couples to different standards than they would if they were differently-gendered and monoracial.)

Not that I want any of the couples mentioned to break up! Just observing that some couples are prone to being broken up, occasionally in ways that make them look like *terrible* people (Clint and Bobbi, Daimon and Patsy, Hank and Janet, Ben and Alicia, Pietro and Crystal, Johnny and Crystal/Frankie/Lyja/Darla/Medusa, any X-dude and their human girlfriend), and others (being traditionally so under-represented), are more likely to go some distance.

[CaptCleghorn]

I also don't like the idea of making Sue a scientist. She'll never be as good as Reed because his whole thing is being the smartest scientist.

However, her going into the medical field does not step on Reed's toes at all. Reed isn't proficient in medicine, he doesn't know how to operate on someone or properly diagnose an treat illnesses. When a member of team is seriously hurt you see them in the hospital, not Reed's lab. Also a doctor/surgeon (mainly doctor) is a people profession where you have to interact with a lot of people and be good with them, something that Reed is also bad at. She wouldn't be a scientist, she would be a doctor. I can even see her teasing Reed that she's an actual doctor

Being in charge of the business is cool, but it still separates from the team when they are adventuring which is the thing they should do the most. There'd be no reason for someone with that role to be on the team, they'd be much suited to straying in an office. Her being a doctor would be a crucial role for an adventuring team that goes to places where the nearest hospital is light-years away. The team should of had Sue in the medical role years ago.

Sue would be an incredible public face for the FF and superheroing in general. She's attractive, intelligent, charismatic, and experienced in dealing with "difficult" personalities. A medical background makes a lot of sense for her, given her father and her personality. But, my concerns here have to do with my personal feeling that Sue taking care of Johnny after their parents' death is a huge part of her background and who she is. If it was me deciding, I would have brought her to almost being a doctor in Med School at the time of the flight (which is why she was with them) and finishing up her degree after getting her powers, thus saving Fraction's butt.

[Zodlike]

They're a stable, white family with heroic values. This is not the sort of thing the ruling class wants the young people they market to desiring or celebrating.