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  1. #16
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeirdSpider View Post
    One neat thing about the show was how the chameleon didn't talk when he was in his true form. He only talked when he was disguised as someone else. It made him seem even creepyer than in the comics.
    That was pretty cool .

    And I just loved the dynamic between Smythe and the Kingpin, with them sniping at each other all the time .

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venomous Mask View Post
    The first season was awesome, but I really think that the show hit it stride in the third. I do think that there was a problem with certain villains getting more screen time than they deserve; we did not need that many Morbius episodes.
    Yeah the first season was my favorite. Several of the villains got to shine in their own episodes solo without being tied to Kingpin somehow(who was also used when necessary in this season and didn't seemed forced in any of the episodes). Which is something we barely got afterwards. Other than barely half a handful of villains, I can't think of any other villains from Season 1, that got their own chance to shine like that after the first season. Season 2 was good, but the decline started here with Kingpin being over used.

    I also agree about Morbius. He was a C/D-lister villain, yet he actually had more exposure on the show than some of Spidey's major villains. By the time the Morbius arc in Season 2 was over, he'd already made more appearances than Norman Osborn's Green Goblin and Venom would ever make throughout the entire series.

  3. #18
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I really can't complain about Kingpin being overused, even if he was pretty much the most recurring, overarching, villain since the show had such an awesome take on him.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I really can't complain about Kingpin being overused, even if he was pretty much the most recurring, overarching, villain since the show had such an awesome take on him.
    I just felt that making him somehow connected to almost everything hurt some of the other villains. Especially Doc Ock. Always working for Kingpin which was out of character for him since he's usually a leader and not a follower. Hell one time in the comics, Kingpin actually admitted that he was afraid of Ock.

    TAS would even find someway to put Kingpin in stories that he really had no business being apart of. Like the Ottobot two-parter. It was Ock's chance to reclaim his status as one of Spidey's arch foes, but it got ruined when it was shown that he was working under Kingpin's orders and not on his own. Kingpin didn't even attribute to anything in that episode aside from showing that Ock wasn't acting alone and didn't really do anything of worth. So he could easily be removed from that episode and it wouldn't be any serious changes.

  5. #20
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KCJ506 View Post
    I just felt that making him somehow connected to almost everything hurt some of the other villains. Especially Doc Ock. Always working for Kingpin which was out of character for him since he's usually a leader and not a follower. Hell one time in the comics, Kingpin actually admitted that he was afraid of Ock.

    TAS would even find someway to put Kingpin in stories that he really had no business being apart of. Like the Ottobot two-parter. It was Ock's chance to reclaim his status as one of Spidey's arch foes, but it got ruined when it was shown that he was working under Kingpin's orders and not on his own. Kingpin didn't even attribute to anything in that episode aside from showing that Ock wasn't acting alone and didn't really do anything of worth. So he could easily be removed from that episode and it wouldn't be any serious changes.
    Well, Osborn/OsCorp/The Big Man ended up responsible for a good deal of the the Rogues Gallery in Spectacular, so I think having Kingpin as the overarching connection between the villains was fine on it's own.

    I guess it did lead to downplaying Ock a little but I thought the show's take on him was strong enough overall that it didn't hurt him in my eyes.

  6. #21
    Mighty Member Minerboh's Avatar
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    My favourite Spider-Man animated series. Too bad that, as always, Marvel and Fox acted like two bickering spoiled brats and left it unfinished.

  7. #22

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    My only problem with the show is that they made Aunt Anna a bitch.
    Last edited by WeirdSpider; 08-20-2017 at 12:13 AM.

  8. #23
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Even as a kid I always hated it's use of stock footage. The show got lazy with it at times. I remember an episode when the lizard lunged at Spider-Man in a lab but the lunge was from the debut episode and they didn't even bother to change the sewer background.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, Osborn/OsCorp/The Big Man ended up responsible for a good deal of the the Rogues Gallery in Spectacular, so I think having Kingpin as the overarching connection between the villains was fine on it's own.

    I guess it did lead to downplaying Ock a little but I thought the show's take on him was strong enough overall that it didn't hurt him in my eyes.
    Well the thing is that in Spectacular, Tombstone had the same role Kingpin had in TAS. Except that he wasn't overused, didn't have almost everyone working for him(it was just Hammerhead and the Enforcers) and didn't somehow make him behind almost everything. The only connection he even had with Doc Ock was helping him orchestrate the big breakout in the first Sinister Six episode and the Gang War stuff. Particularly the opera house episode. That was it. He was didn't even appear at all during the Master Planner episodes.

  10. #25
    Incredible Member AngelJD's Avatar
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    This was the show and first Earth version introduction to a Spider-man/Peter and his cast for me. How close it was to the 616 or what was original or different for the series I didn't know as when I watched this as a kid I took what I saw at face value. It could be vastly/totally different from the 616 version and I wouldn't know nor care but I would care about the story and characters they presented to me. Many people usually have a set image/view about 'Spider-man' and the cast based on what was their introduction that left an impact for them.

    This show I enjoyed a few character but the one that I grew the most invested and enjoying the most towards was MJ HOWEVER only when Peter revealed his secret to her. After he revealed his secret MJ suddenly became more involved and apart of the show and Peter's world. Showing bravery, intelligence, and determination as well as being good and wanting to help/protect Peter and others. After they got married the whole MJ having water powers (which kid me was blown away and loved and got even more thrilled about her for) then the whole 'Clone' arc happen (my first clone story presented to me), and death of a character I loved on the series. Now this is a major moment to how I was first introduced to such storyline and characters that would help shape my own feelings on such matters of clones and matters of 'real'/humanity/humaneness and value of all life.

    The nature and matters of 'clones' has always been a deep psychology and spiritual standpoint in how one views such characters. First off how do they see themselves after the reveal happens and how do the others see them. I for one feel they are as real as anybody else and deserve the rights of life and to life like anybody.
    Now other matters also play a factor. 'Clones' or humans/metahumans born by science might be a mental copy and sometimes a physical copy when born if not re-shaped by the maker in some way. However the moment awareness, experiences, and choices happen then they become their own persons and no longer a copy but an individual whose birth wasn't a traditional birth but real and unique like anybody else all the same.

    Now this version of MJ (I say version vs copy as in the Marvel Universe there exist tons of 'Mary Jane' versions such as 616, the one's from animated shows, 1610, 65, ect and all are MJs but still all are individuals and have their own fates and choices and are shaped by their world and cast) was first a 'clone' when she was born. Then she became her own VERSION of a MJ hours later having experiences and choices and was shaped by such things the other version of MJ (who got put into limbo portal) didn't experience or be shaped by.

    This version loved Peter and was loved truly in return (might of started with false start due to not knowing the full truth of her origin birth but their shared experiences nurtured the love). She is the one who married Peter and the two fought together against villains and the odds. She was the one with super powers unknown to her.

    I'm going to say that comparing the two versions of MJ that was shown in this show (first MJ that was thrown in a portal and the second version MJ married to Peter and having powers) I FAR preferred this version made and showcased as a kid. I was super young and while I recognised that MJs presented to me was by standards 'good looking' I was still at the 'girl are icky' youth of my life. Thus MJ of any versions couldn't get by on looks alone for me. Her characterization and her actions and what she could bring to the show really was what mattered for me.

    First MJ version in this show didn't stand out in my memory and I didn't have much interest in her. Her not knowing Peter's secret made it hard for her to connect fully in his life and thus kept her blocked in involvements and choices that could matter and define her.
    I recall her being kidnapped/in danger (as was a norm of the time, tropes, and role aspects of characters in that area) plus a storyline involving Doctor Strange (my first Peter/Spider-man, MJ, and so many Marvel characters versions first appeared to me from this show including my first Doctor Strange version that came from this show) talking about her past with her bad father. That's it really.

    Then after 'MJ' came back somehow from the portal she suddenly had a HUGE boost for me. She had a mystery that made her intriguing (how was she back), she was let into Peter's secret life and accepted him but first admit to Spider-man that she loved Peter before Peter revealed he was Peter Parker all along, let in she and the fiancee she and Peter was closer and had more adventures, she took action, she show smarts, she showed bravery defend Peter as much as he defended her (before finding out about her powers much later). Then it was revealed she had superpowers! As a kid she went from eh to WOW and i was fascinated and love what I was seeing and this MJ. Overall she ranks high amoung my favorite MJs.

    Then tragedy. First she was revealed that she was born by science (aka Cloning).
    I didn't care about how she was started for her origins I just cared that a character I really liked was around and made the show enjoyable and now had another factor to bring. She was real to me as a kid and that didn't matter to me. The mystery was solved but the matters of her being a 'clone' I still felt she was as real (and better than other MJ at that point for her actions/character shown to me).
    Kid me: "MJ...superhero! COOL! Loving this!"

    Second I knew that meant the first MJ version was still trapped and would have to be eventually found and rescued by Peter (and even possibly by this MJ superhero version). But then what. That I thought was going to be fascinating to see play out and the drama and views and debates.

    Image it. A MJ version that has powers and legally married to and loves Peter. Yet how does she see herself? Does she feel 'fake', real, does she feel that due to this new info she can't be married to Peter. Love is a deep and mysterious feeling and I feel this version truly loves Peter. Would she want to run away feeling she doesn't deserve Peter. Would she leave but be unable to go wanting Peter. How does she feel about her existence? The nature and talk about what's real/fake. Her emtions that are real and choices that define her.
    How would Peter feel. Truly loving two MJ versions in his life and one whom he has married but the confusing emtions and thoughts this can bring. Love triangle but in a unexpected ways.
    Plus the marriage was public.

    Finally it is assuming the first MJ version would react to instantly marrying Peter and react the same way as the 2nd version finding out Peter's secret. How does the first version might see 2nd version (fake or real/sister or complicated)? Plus many other factors put int.
    A big twist could happen that while we expect some things based on what 2nd version superhero MJ told/shown us HOWEVER unlike the 2nd version the 1st MJ version has some different experiences not shared with the 2nd including her time tossed in a portal. That could shape 1st MJ version into not wanting anything to do with superheroes and supers overall (like current 616 MJ has been and presently sometimes displayed) from that impactful traumatic experience thus she DOESN't react the same way as the 2nd version (much to Peter's and 2nd/superhero MJ shock)

    Overall a MJ with superpowers and loves and is loved and married to Peter but then having this info known to them and having the 1st MJ back could've been most fascinating to see handled and bring up a debate and deep thinking on the nature of what is real and life itself and what shapes us as the people we are. Peter himself was shaped by his actions/choices (or lack of action in stopping the robber that killed Ben and became Spider0man from that moment in time).


    BUT NOPE!

    The reveal then death. I was not just very sad to see MJ die but all that possibilities dying with her. I was sad to see this MJ that I grew to love die on screen during my childhood.
    Kid me (upset and broken hearted): "NO NO NO NO!!!! Save your wife that has gone above and beyond for you Peter! Save superhero MJ! Why does she have to die?! She is so cool! I really like her! She did things! She has cool powers! Don't kill her show! NO! NO! AAAAAHHH!"

    Now as a kid if first version MJ came back I feel that I would of placed 'a shadow' of this version over her and she would of had an uphill battle to get out of it.

    I didn't know it but since I watched this as a kid and was partially affected by it and the character MJ I really love here this would affect how I would view all future 'Clone' stories in various stories particularly how does the story and characters treat (or treat themselves) the one's born by science and are they treated as people who matter (which they should be treated just as much as anybody else and as individuals as the whole idea of being just a 'copy' stops the moment different experiences and they make there own choices happen).

  11. #26
    Incredible Member AngelJD's Avatar
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    Now back then I didn't know about anybody named 'Gwen Stacy' or a bunch of other characters that I now know about in the Marvel Universes. The first Gwen Stacy that was introduced to me was from this show (however while I liked her based on what I could recall as a kid she was impactful long enough for me to recall her and the Gwen that became impactful and shaped first my views on 'her' was from Spectacular Spider-man Gwen Stacy then other versions even before 616 such as Emma Stone and 1610 Gwen Stacy).

    Knowing what I know now if I had the power I would want that MJ Water Clone storyline to remain the same (if anything having her showcase using her environment and her smarts that I liked seeing from both MJs plus I recall and liked the line she said when mixing chemicals/gases "MJ you are becoming a talented scientist like Peter"). However a big change I would of done would be that I would have Peter save her. If not with his own smarts and determination then calling in a favor from Madame Web when she comes to collect Peter for the Secret Wars right as Water MJ is dying for Madame Web to save her. Madame Web agrees and Peter is transported to another planet for the Secret Wars but is told by Madame Web that she has contacted somebody who possibly will be able to help the dying gal.

    After the Secret Wars and the adventure leading a few Multiverse Peters/Spider-men and Ben/Scarlet Spider against the evil warped version of himself Madame Web takes Peter back to his Earth dimension and back to where she picked him up at. The MJ that was dying is missing and Peter is afraid and upset that she might be dead. Two MJs he loves gone and he failed them. Madame Web tells him that she had the Beyonder care for her and had used his powers to save her. She was left at this spot by Madame Web minutes ago asleep but must of woke up and run off. As Madame Web starts to disappear Peter asks where can he find her and also where is his first MJ of his Earth that he also loves. Madame Web says he might not have to look far to find her and for the first it's not where but WHEN.

    Madame Web is gone and Peter is agitated and worried sick. He see's a fire a few miles away and being a hero rushes off despite wanting to take that time to find 2nd version MJ that he married. Him deciding to take responsibility and be a hero beyond his own desires pays off as Water MJ is at the site using her water powers to go thru the thin pipes to reach and put out a fire to save some that was kids trapped and the firemen couldn't get to. The fire has made MJ lose a bit of water to the point of danger but Peter is there on time to bust a window allowing water from the hose bellow to reach and be absorbed by. Regaining the energy to make herself solid enough Peter lifts her and web swings themselves out of the building before it collapses.

    High above the City Water MJ gains focus and panics when she see's Peter. She is afraid of what he thinks of her and wants to run away but finds that her inexperience with her water powers made her lose too much unnecessary water during the fire and she has trouble standing. Peter gives her a water bottle and she opens it up to splash against her and the water on her body is adsorbed in. Water MJ mensions that is still strange for her to discover she is capable of that. Shifting to look human vs a water embodiment Peter tells her about his first time discovering his powers and the self training and discovers he still making.

    Peter asks her not to run and instead to have a talk. Peter asks why she was there at the fire when she could of died. Water MJ says when she woke up she wanted to run. Confused, sad, angry, lost, and questioning her existence she wanted to run. She didn't know where but she wanted to escape everything she discovered and herself if she could. She wanted to run before Peter came and told her how she was a fake and didn't love her. MJ had gotten far form the site and would of gotten away but then she saw the fire in the background. Water MJ saw many fire trucks heading towards the site and knew if she went she could possibly bump into Peter. She also told herself that the firemen could handle it in the back of her head. She didn't listen to herself and reacted instantly heading to the danger.

    Water MJ tells him she is ashamed and now she discovers that her memories are a lie including her existence. That she isn't real and a fake. That their love isn't...

    Peter stops her there. Peter tells her that he just had an interesting adventure. A Multiverse adventure. He worked with other Peter versions. Some had a past like his and some went on a different path. The differences usually came about from having different experiences that help shaped who they were. Now knowing that such a thing as a Multiverse exists and there are other Peter versions out there he asks Water MJ does that make him to not matter in the grand scheme of all things? That knowing other Peter's exist means he is unimportant. Water MJ tells him that he matters so much and isn't less imported no matter how many Peters might exist.

    Peter tells her that she also matters too. While not the first Mary Jane version for this Earth that doesn't make her any less of a person than who she makes herself to be from her own choices. That she went into danger to save lives and that was HER choice. A choice of a woman who he loves. She is touched and in tears. She begins wondering why he would be kind to her knowing she isn't even a normal human plus that their love was founded falsely.

    Peter tells her that HE isn't really a normal human also (half spider making him a hybrid species really) and how one is born is of little matter was what one does with life. Their start together might of been not what either had known but Peter tells her that when she was dying even after all the truths came out he felt a fear and grief he never wants to feel agian. He though he was going to lose her. He knows he loves her. That love is a strange and wonderful and complicated emotion and state. That love can grow and be nurtured or die. How they began might not be what was in their own power but the choices they made makes him believe that true love has been grown between them from the experiences only they shared. He loves her. He feels that she loves him too. He asks that does she love him.

    In tears she doesn't dienie and says yes.

    She mentions however that while she does love Peter it isn't really fair for the real (but then says 'first version' Mary Jane when Peter shows concerns that the MJ before him is speaking in terms of real/fake when he doesn't view her in terms of such) MJ "If any part of me... is anything like the real Mary Jane Watson... the first version of this world Mary Jane. She loves you more than anything in the world. More...than...anything." Speaking about her makes Water MJ understand instantly to her dismay that first MJ is still missing and hasn't been found. Water MJ proclaims they have to find and save her now very worried for first MJ's unknown fated.

    Peter agrees and says they will. Both understand that things have gotten even more complicated but for the matters of making sure their friends and family will not be confused to why 'MJ' is gone and be worried Water MJ agrees to stay by Peter's side and pretend everything is normal when around others.

    Water MJ understands what Peter has said but still feels that she must become her own person. She plans on helping and finding MJ and knows while there might be many gals named Mary Jane out on that Earth it still unsettling now knowing she and her are not the same gal. Studying her powers she questions how she able to shift while in water form and look fully human complete with coloring and a outfit. She practices making a brand new outfit from her powers and discovers she can. Then she begins seeing if she might be able to have a face that is special and all hers that feels right. "People change their names to something new that suits them plus have a total makeover for a new yet all still you". She places her hands on her hair and sliding her fingers in makes her hair blond. "Now this is feeling right"

    Peter and Water MJ have company and they continue the charade of things being normal. When they are gone however she tells Peter that while they try to find MJ and she has to look like and be called her name to keep up the act when they are alone together she wants Peter to call her by a new name she chooses for herself that felt right. She then uses her powers and shifts and transforms into a new gal Peter saw in his Multiverse Adventure to his shock (and he didn't even mention her to Water MJ) "Call me.. Gwen Stacy"

    Gwen and Peter research and has a scientific deep investigation to find out what happened to Mary Jane. Gwen even tosses herself over the bridge asking Peter to do exactly what he did before and when he does so the web line catches Gwen by her leg... and in pain Gwen has it 'snap' off and she falls into the water. Gwen rises out of the water by her powers and she is peeved at Peter and reminds him how 'bungee cords' work. Peter: I still don't know what has become of her but Mary Jane might of gotten lucky. I was not thinking but panicking when I tried to save her."

  12. #27
    Incredible Member AngelJD's Avatar
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    Peter and Gwen eventually discover that MJ fell into a portal and with Connors help and blueprints stolen by Black Cat for them they make a new device to be use to save MJ.

    Gwen worries that MJ will hate her being her clone. She hopes that she might be seen as her sister like Gwen feels about her but doubts MJ would feel that way.

    MJ is eventually saved and Gwen Stacy stays in New York. Gwen was sure MJ would react the same like she did if given the truth but the trauma she had altered her making MJ needing some time to herself to recover and that gave Gwen reason to stay vs moving to London to watch from afar MJ's mental health and help out if she could while Peter helped MJ more directly.

    MJ isn't a fool and knows she being watched and surprises Gwen catching her by surprise. MJ demands to know who she is. Gwen tells her that she is Gwen Stacy and she is a 'friend' of Peter's (she doesn't tell her that she is her water clone, her powers, or the whole marriage that Gwen and Peter had and still technically have but not). That she wanted to help MJ but didn't know how to approach her.

    Meanwhile family and friends doesn't know what is wrong with MJ and believe after some major event MJ must of gotten hurt and suffering from amnesia.

    In time MJ recovers. Accepts Peter's proposal. Learns by her own deductions that Peter is Spider-man which he confirms to her (but MJ isn't too shocked as deep down she knew) and even that Gwen is the unnamed water superhero just from spending some girl time with her as best friends. What she doesn't know exactly is any memories of what everybody has been telling her about Peter and her being married.

    Gwen decides it was time for MJ to know the full truth. That before she named herself Gwen and look different from MJ yet still close enough to look like sisters she had another name and face. That she is MJ's clone. Now MJ is more shocked then she ever been.

    MJ is informed of everything.

    Some time and events goes by and MJ and Peter are husband and wife and Gwen is in ESU with them working on becoming a scientist. MJ and Gwen have a lunch together and talk about some things. MJ mentions while Peter and her might be Husband and Wife it was really Gwen and Peter that got married some time ago. Gwen mentions that Peter and MJ could possibly "renew your vows" with a cover story that the first wedding was 'ruined' from a villain attack that happened. MJ and Peter would really have the ceremony they deserve. MJ thinks that is a fantastic idea and asks Gwen if she would be her best woman as "that is usually the bride would ask their sister to be at their wedding". Gwen is in joy and agrees happily (MJ called her 'sister')

    Then while plans for the wedding happen Gwen finds herself feeling a bit weak and needing more water than usual. She goes to be looked over by Connors and discovers bad news. After assisting Peter to take down the latest threat who had some sort of chemical weapon her body was hurt by the substance. She is relapsing very slowly destabilising again. She is told she might have a year or two if lucky and could extend her life with treatments and not using her powers and hopefully a cure can be discovered. She asks Connors to not tell Peter and MJ. Meanwhile Gwen acts like nothing is wrong as she helps with MJ and Peter's '2nd' wedding.

    However as some time goes by and Gwen still helps out using her powers she gets weaker and MJ sees Gwen isn't well. Peter is asked to investigate and Peter finds a note by Connors. When Gwen goes back to her place she sees MJ and Peter there angry, depressed, and worried.

    At that point many Earths versions presented has 'Gwen Stacy' dying and the tragedy however this case it's a different matters of dying but still horrible grief and tragedy as death comes very slowly and the 7 stages and how people reacted when knowing a friend/family/sister is dying and seeing the decaying before one's eyes.

    I don't have anymore time to type (longer the I expected to write) but above is the general ideas in my head.

  13. #28
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    It's actually kinda clever that clone MJ could've taken on Gwen's identity - because of course, the episode in which the real MJ was lost was an adaptation of The Night Gwen Stacy Died! She was always a combination of both characters.

  14. #29
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeirdSpider View Post

    My only problem with the show is that they made Aunt Anna a bitch.
    Did they ever explain why she hated Peter so much?
    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    Even as a kid I always hated it's use of stock footage. The show got lazy with it at times. I remember an episode when the lizard lunged at Spider-Man in a lab but the lunge was from the debut episode and they didn't even bother to change the sewer background.
    That's probably the show's biggest issue looking back on it, but I guess I just have to forgive it given it was a budget issue out-of-the-hands of the creators.

    Quote Originally Posted by KCJ506 View Post
    Well the thing is that in Spectacular, Tombstone had the same role Kingpin had in TAS. Except that he wasn't overused, didn't have almost everyone working for him(it was just Hammerhead and the Enforcers) and didn't somehow make him behind almost everything. The only connection he even had with Doc Ock was helping him orchestrate the big breakout in the first Sinister Six episode and the Gang War stuff. Particularly the opera house episode. That was it. He was didn't even appear at all during the Master Planner episodes.
    True. I just didn't have an issue with the overuse of the Kingpin because, again, he was a pretty awesome Kingpin .

    Practically ever major Spider baddie gets overused at some point after all .

  15. #30
    Y'know. Pav's Avatar
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    I agree about the downplay of Ock. But the comics of the time didn't really portrayed him as the deadliest of Spidey's foes either. That's why I enjoy Slott's take on Ock so much: he's basically the only writer in my lifetime to show us why Ock should be up there with Norman and Venom.

    Also, I'd never really thought about it before, but my love of Morbius probably originates from the show - along with the single Morbius comic I owned as a kid.

    -Pav, who would love a well-done Morbius series...
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