Spider-Man Title Placements In Top 100 For July 2017

[Kevinroc]

Amazing Spider-Man orders should not be half of what Batman's are. That they are is a failure on Marvel's part.

[MetalWoman]

Amazing Spider-man has consistently been the second highest selling ongoing superhero comic, beaten only by Batman. I think it is less that Amazing Spider-man is doing poorly, and more that Batman is an extreme outlier.

[Vaegrin]

I'm not exactly a fan of the Burton movies, but those generated quite a stir at the time (despite modest box office numbers), with more films to follow starring very heavy hitters. Then came the Nolan trilogy and now a BvS movie. In all that time, the SM movies have generated very stale numbers (good but constant), around $800 million. The fact that the last 2 Nolan movies in particular, generated so much revenue in comparison, indicates that it touched a market outside the fanbase. Whether that translates into better comics sales or not, is just speculation on my part.

That's understandable speculation, but it's not borne out in history. In June 1997, the month when Batman and Robin was released, Amazing Spider-Man outsold Batman by more than 20,000 copies. Spider-Man continued to outsell Batman consistently, by a wide margin, for years. Even at the absolute lowest point of Spider-Man's sales, which occurred in early 2001, Spider-Man still outsold Batman every single month. And not just Amazing Spider-Man; Ultimate Spider-Man and Peter Parker: Spider-Man were also outselling Batman. All of this was well before Spider-Man's first movie was released in May 2002.

Spider-Man's sales did increase in April 2001, over a year before the release of the movie, coinciding with J. Michael Straczynski's first issue. Sales gradually increased over time before reaching a peak in August 2002, and they held steadily above 100,000 for several months afterward. Beginning with Straczynski's first issue in April 2001, Spider-Man would never again sell fewer than 70,000 copies of a single issue until July 2008. The release of the movie Spider-Man 2 in June 2004 might have given the Spider-Man books a small boost, but both Amazing Spider-Man and Ultimate Spider-Man were already outselling some of Batman's strongest sales in years anyway.

The release of Batman Begins in June 2005 happened to coincide with the lowest point of the Straczynski era, when Amazing Spider-Man frequently sold in the mid-70K range. Yet both Amazing Spider-Man and Ultimate Spider-Man both outsold Batman every month of that year. Looking at sales for Batman, it is possible that Batman Begins helped push that book above 60K, but if there was any bump from the movie, it was a small one and did not last long.

Batman's sales markedly improved in July 2006, which happened to coincide with the introduction of Damian Wayne. That month, Batman finally managed to outsell Amazing Spider-Man (by approximately 45 copies). The release of The Dark Knight was still two years away. From that point forward, the top Batman book during any given month would rarely, if ever, fail to hit the 70,000 mark, even in the absence of any sales-boosting event.

The movie Spider-Man 3 was released in 2007. Amazing Spider-Man finally fell below the 70,000 mark about a year later, six months into Brand New Day. It fell below 60,000 for the first time in January 2009. By the time of the release of The Amazing Spider-Man in June 2012, the preceding 18 consecutive issues of Amazing Spider-Man had sold fewer than 60,000 copies. The book surpassed the 60,000 threshold for a single issue that month, before dropping below it again until the arrival of Superior Spider-Man.

[Vaegrin]

Amazing Spider-man has consistently been the second highest selling ongoing superhero comic, beaten only by Batman. I think it is less that Amazing Spider-man is doing poorly, and more that Batman is an extreme outlier.

We are talking about a lengthy period of time, but sales for Superman, Wonder Woman, and Flash have all tended to increase--or at least hold steady--over the relevant time frame. Batman has had the strongest improvement among superhero books, but it is not the only one to have improved. Even if Batman were the only title in the entire industry to have improved its sales over time, it would be worth asking why.

[Pav]

I'm glad to see there's still over twenty thousand people buying Scarlet Spider - and that it even outsold Spider-Gwen! As long as that continues, the title should be fairly safe.

-Pav, who wants at least a two-year run...

[nose norton]

That's understandable speculation, but it's not borne out in history. In June 1997, the month when Batman and Robin was released, Amazing Spider-Man outsold Batman by more than 20,000 copies. Spider-Man continued to outsell Batman consistently, by a wide margin, for years. Even at the absolute lowest point of Spider-Man's sales, which occurred in early 2001, Spider-Man still outsold Batman every single month. And not just Amazing Spider-Man; Ultimate Spider-Man and Peter Parker: Spider-Man were also outselling Batman. All of this was well before Spider-Man's first movie was released in May 2002.

Spider-Man's sales did increase in April 2001, over a year before the release of the movie, coinciding with J. Michael Straczynski's first issue. Sales gradually increased over time before reaching a peak in August 2002, and they held steadily above 100,000 for several months afterward. Beginning with Straczynski's first issue in April 2001, Spider-Man would never again sell fewer than 70,000 copies of a single issue until July 2008. The release of the movie Spider-Man 2 in June 2004 might have given the Spider-Man books a small boost, but both Amazing Spider-Man and Ultimate Spider-Man were already outselling some of Batman's strongest sales in years anyway.

The release of Batman Begins in June 2005 happened to coincide with the lowest point of the Straczynski era, when Amazing Spider-Man frequently sold in the mid-70K range. Yet both Amazing Spider-Man and Ultimate Spider-Man both outsold Batman every month of that year. Looking at sales for Batman, it is possible that Batman Begins helped push that book above 60K, but if there was any bump from the movie, it was a small one and did not last long.

Batman's sales markedly improved in July 2006, which happened to coincide with the introduction of Damian Wayne. That month, Batman finally managed to outsell Amazing Spider-Man (by approximately 45 copies). The release of The Dark Knight was still two years away. From that point forward, the top Batman book during any given month would rarely, if ever, fail to hit the 70,000 mark, even in the absence of any sales-boosting event.

The movie Spider-Man 3 was released in 2007. Amazing Spider-Man finally fell below the 70,000 mark about a year later, six months into Brand New Day. It fell below 60,000 for the first time in January 2009. By the time of the release of The Amazing Spider-Man in June 2012, the preceding 18 consecutive issues of Amazing Spider-Man had sold fewer than 60,000 copies. The book surpassed the 60,000 threshold for a single issue that month, before dropping below it again until the arrival of Superior Spider-Man.

Yes, I'm aware of the progress of SM sales, which hasn't had much help from the movies (let's see if the trend continues). My point was that the movies more or less make a steady buck, because they appeal to the fanbase, which doesn't necessarily have to be always buying ASM.

On the other hand, the last two Nolan movies were real blockbusters, so that might have expanded the reader base. I'm not familiar with the sales history of the title. Previous movies may've had inferior box office numbers/influence in the sales of comics, but they stablished the character as an icon for a lot of people outside the comic market. When the Nolan films made the impact they made, that must've resonated somehow. The dates you mention certainly don't correlate, but wasn't there any sales boost after The Dark Knight?

[Vaegrin]

Yes, I'm aware of the progress of SM sales, which hasn't had much help from the movies (let's see if the trend continues). My point was that the movies more or less make a steady buck, because they appeal to the fanbase, which doesn't necessarily have to be always buying ASM.

On the other hand, the last two Nolan movies were real blockbusters, so that might have expanded the reader base. I'm not familiar with the sales history of the title. Previous movies may've had inferior box office numbers/influence in the sales of comics, but they stablished the character as an icon for a lot of people outside the comic market. When the Nolan films made the impact they made, that must've resonated somehow. The dates you mention certainly don't correlate, but wasn't there any sales boost after The Dark Knight?

All-Star Batman & Robin the Boy Wonder was the best-selling Batman title at the time, and it was already selling approximately 100K per issue in the year leading up to the release of The Dark Knight. Batman was doing around 75K at that time. Batman sales jumped up to the 100K range in May 2008, two months before the release of the movie, after All Star Batman & Robin the Boy Wonder ended and Batman kicked off "Batman R.I.P." Sales for Batman 678 in July 2008, coinciding with the movie's release, did move up slightly from sales for Batman 677, but only slightly, and they were already in the 100K range both before and after the movie's release.

The pattern is quite consistent. Movies tend to give very small sales bumps that are extremely short-lived. Yet sales trends have a very strong, powerful correlation with what is actually happening in the books. When you look at the numbers available, you might be able to make a case that The Dark Knight helped a little bit, maybe, kind of. But Batman R.I.P. was huge. Damian Wayne was huge. Battle for the Cowl, Batman and Robin starring Dick and Damian, The Return of Bruce Wayne--the sustained impact of these stories cannot be overstated. Just when Batman was starting to look beatable again in 2011, along came the New 52 late that year--nearly a year before The Dark Knight Rises--and returned Batman to the top of the charts. I see no apparent impact whatsoever from The Dark Knight Rises on Batman's sales.

As for Spider-Man, we can already see that Amazing Spider-Man hopped from just over 50K to just under 60K with the Secret Empire tie-in around the time of the movie's release. Whether that is because of the movie, the tie-in, or both is anybody's guess. But sales moved downward again in July, and there is no reason to expect any sustained increase based on these factors.

As Kevinroc points out, there is good reason to believe that Spider-Man is more popular and more marketable than Batman anyway, movies or no movies. But it could hardly be more clear to me that it is error to assume that the sales of these books is due in any significant way to outside factors having nothing to do with the content of the stories. The trends are abundantly clear. Primarily, indeed overwhelmingly, what moves sales numbers for books is the stories within those books, not movies based on their characters.

[Kevinroc]

Yes, I'm aware of the progress of SM sales, which hasn't had much help from the movies (let's see if the trend continues). My point was that the movies more or less make a steady buck, because they appeal to the fanbase, which doesn't necessarily have to be always buying ASM.

On the other hand, the last two Nolan movies were real blockbusters, so that might have expanded the reader base. I'm not familiar with the sales history of the title. Previous movies may've had inferior box office numbers/influence in the sales of comics, but they stablished the character as an icon for a lot of people outside the comic market. When the Nolan films made the impact they made, that must've resonated somehow. The dates you mention certainly don't correlate, but wasn't there any sales boost after The Dark Knight?

The Dark Knight came out in 2008. The Dark Knight Rises in 2012. The Batman comics being released today aren't riding off the coattails of a film trilogy that saw its last release over five years ago.

[Vaegrin]

The Dark Knight came out in 2008. The Dark Knight Rises in 2012. The Batman comics being released today aren't riding off the coattails of a film trilogy that saw its last release over five years ago.

This is correct, and it is obviously so.

The overall popularity and public profile of a character makes a huge difference for smaller books with no name recognition, but characters like Batman and Spider-Man are ubiquitous. It makes no sense to blame vague, impossible-to-pinpoint outside causes for the relative success of ubiquitous titles, especially when there are clear associations between sales trends and the content of the books.

At the end of the day it's not hard to pinpoint the beginning of the decline for Spider-Man. Blame market forces, blame the monthly schedule, blame purple dragons, or blame anything you want; but the audience for Spider-Man shrank after One More Day, reaching a seven-year low within 6 months of Brand New Day and never recovering. (We can talk about that monthly schedule thing if you want; DC's twice-monthly schedules and Spider-Man's own schedule shifts provide insight.)

The greatest and longest period of sustained success for Spider-Man since One More Day--in the absence of relaunches, anniversaries, events, and other temporary boosts--was Superior Spider-Man in 2012, along with the subsequent relaunches and the original Renew Your Vows. There is no question--none--that One More Day was, intentionally and explicitly, a move backwards, a regression of Spider-Man's development by at least 20 years, together with the implication that he should be permanently fixed in his newly retrograde state. So maybe it means nothing that Spider-Man's most successful stories over the past ten years have also been the most forward-looking: a story that replaced Spider-Man with the mind of a villain who would be allowed to grow and develop as a character, and a story that teased the restoration and advancement of the progression that One More Day had stripped away. Maybe that means nothing.

On the other hand, it is just as easy to pinpoint the moments when Batman's core readership began to grow, going back to the introduction of Damian Wayne, irrevocably cementing Batman as the most famous father in comics. Since then, Batman has benefited from one innovative, forward-looking story after another, each one producing a discernible impact on sales. These have not merely been sideways changes to his status quo. Batman has grown, in concrete, identifiable ways. He has not only expanded his supporting cast, but elevated its importance: both the importance of Batman's allies and of his relationships with them. These relationships have developed, and they have deepened, and through them the book has delved more deeply into who Batman is as a person; and he has changed and grown as a result. I do not know if Catwoman will agree to marry Batman, but the fact that it is possible speaks volumes.

Maybe none of that has anything to do with the success of the books. Correlation is not causation. But the correlations are not hard to find.

[nose norton]

All-Star Batman & Robin the Boy Wonder was the best-selling Batman title at the time, and it was already selling approximately 100K per issue in the year leading up to the release of The Dark Knight. Batman was doing around 75K at that time. Batman sales jumped up to the 100K range in May 2008, two months before the release of the movie, after All Star Batman & Robin the Boy Wonder ended and Batman kicked off "Batman R.I.P." Sales for Batman 678 in July 2008, coinciding with the movie's release, did move up slightly from sales for Batman 677, but only slightly, and they were already in the 100K range both before and after the movie's release.

The pattern is quite consistent. Movies tend to give very small sales bumps that are extremely short-lived. Yet sales trends have a very strong, powerful correlation with what is actually happening in the books. When you look at the numbers available, you might be able to make a case that The Dark Knight helped a little bit, maybe, kind of. But Batman R.I.P. was huge. Damian Wayne was huge. Battle for the Cowl, Batman and Robin starring Dick and Damian, Battle for the Cowl--the sustained impact of these stories cannot be overstated. Just when Batman was starting to look beatable again in 2011, along came the New 52 in 2011--nearly a year before The Dark Knight Rises--and returned Batman to the top of the charts. I see no apparent impact whatsoever from The Dark Knight Rises on Batman's sales.

Point taken.

[Aioros22]

I'm glad to see there's still over twenty thousand people buying Scarlet Spider - and that it even outsold Spider-Gwen! As long as that continues, the title should be fairly safe.

-Pav, who wants at least a two-year run...

It could be more, I daresay it should be and understandably a character who suffered red Hering after red herring from manageament and turned some older fans off with Clone conspiracy after being dead for like..20 years or so, it`s not that shabby.

It would really help to promote Ben Reilly elements in other media, like animated releases too.

[Vworp Vworp]

It could be more, I daresay it should be and understandably a character who suffered red Hering after red herring from manageament and turned some older fans off with Clone conspiracy after being dead for like..20 years or so, it`s not that shabby.

With the real Ben Reilly in the book, it may well have been more. But we'll never know.

For now, the book is the second lowest selling Spider title, topping only Spider-Gwen. And that isn't really much of an achievement considering it was #22 of Spider-Gwen and we're only on #5 of Scarlet Spider. A fairer comparison would be against the same issue of Gwen's run, which was back at the start of 2016. Spider-Gwen #5 was ranked 32 for the month with sales of 43,796. Almost twice the numbers of the same issue of Scarlet Spider.

[Pav]

With the real Ben Reilly in the book, it may well have been more. But we'll never know.

For now, the book is the second lowest selling Spider title, topping only Spider-Gwen. And that isn't really much of an achievement considering it was #22 of Spider-Gwen and we're only on #5 of Scarlet Spider. A fairer comparison would be against the same issue of Gwen's run, which was back at the start of 2016. Spider-Gwen #5 was ranked 32 for the month with sales of 43,796. Almost twice the numbers of the same issue of Scarlet Spider.

I'd prefer not to have to read your continued negativity regarding the book, which - from the sounds of it - you aren't reading. I'd much prefer to discuss the book with people enjoying it (and actually reading it). Yet the notion of blocking/censoring you is distasteful to me. I don't want to do that, and I won't.

I have no problem with you disliking the book. I just hope you'll consider that it's not fun to read about your dislike. And the hobby of collecting and discussing comics is supposed to be fun.

-Pav, who knows we weren't born to be forced...

[rui no onna]

I'd prefer not to have to read your continued negativity regarding the book, which - from the sounds of it - you aren't reading. I'd much prefer to discuss the book with people enjoying it (and actually reading it). Yet the notion of blocking/censoring you is distasteful to me. I don't want to do that, and I won't.

I have no problem with you disliking the book. I just hope you'll consider that it's not fun to read about your dislike. And the hobby of collecting and discussing comics is supposed to be fun.

-Pav, who knows we weren't born to be forced...

Armchair analysis of why sales are the way they are and historical comparisons are inevitable in a thread that specifically discusses sales rankings. If you don't want to see negative comments, probably best to steer clear of such threads and just stick to actual book discussions and appreciation threads.

[Pav]

Armchair analysis of why sales are the way they are and historical comparisons are inevitable in a thread that specifically discusses sales rankings. If you don't want to see negative comments, probably best to steer clear of such threads and just stick to actual book discussions and appreciation threads.

That may be.

-Pav, who probably should've kept his mouth shut in the first place anyway...