Starman: James Robinson deserves more credit

[GhostPirate]

To each their own, but in this case I'll be the guy to point out that at least sometimes it seems the Emperor is indeed running around naked. I just don't see why the series is considered such a "masterpiece", and personally I found it dramatically overrated. The Shade mini and over-arching storyline was really what kept me reading, and I found the "talks with David" issues enjoyable, but beyond that? meh. I found Jack a bland and thoroughly unlikeable protagonist, a lot of the interesting aspects of legacy he seemed intent on exploring really fizzled with some of his writing and plot choices towards the latter half of the series, and Robinson's insistence on forcing every DC character to ever use the name of Starman (all of whom I liked more than Jack) into his narrative, especially in many of the ways he chose to do so, I found disappointing, and downright wasteful, on so many levels.

Starman, and the relentless praise the series enjoys around this site especially, is actually one of the primary reasons why I will go through the library to check out a book or two of a series that is universally raved about online before purchasing now whenever possible. While I don't wave a banner for Gaiman, Moore, Morrison, et al., I believe all have had their legitimate genius runs on various characters and titles, even though all have had their admitted missteps as well; but, while Robinson seems a reasonably talented writer and by his forwards in the collected editions, a pretty likeable guy, I in no way see how he deserves mentioning in that group. Sandman and Swamp Thing, in particular, are just that much superior to Starman, AND they each have more than a few additional runs, series, novels, or the like on their resume Robinson just doesn't match. Frankly, I'd put him even below the next group of great, if not necessarily visionary, writers as well, such as Claremont, Byrne, Stern, Simonson, Ostrander, Busiek and their like, because I wouldn't consider Starman the equal of their respective runs on X-Men, FF, Spider-Man, Thor, Suicide Squad, etc, either. He seems more fittingly grouped with 'reasonably competent but my goodness are they fawned over to nonsensical extremes' examples like Vaughan, Johns, & Snyder.

As far as "under collected", I'm not sure I get that complaint either. I know for a fact the entire Starman run has at least been collected in deluxe trades (after donating the first 2 books my library now has the complete run), and I'm pretty sure also in smaller softcover editions as well... which you can't say for a lot of really good DC runs from in and around that time, including what I consider a far superior run in Ostrander's Spectre. I wish Ostrander, in particular, was that "under collected". You want to talk about deserving more credit...

[Bor]

To each their own, but in this case I'll be the guy to point out that at least sometimes it seems the Emperor is indeed running around naked. I just don't see why the series is considered such a "masterpiece", and personally I found it dramatically overrated. The Shade mini and over-arching storyline was really what kept me reading, and I found the "talks with David" issues enjoyable, but beyond that? meh. I found Jack a bland and thoroughly unlikeable protagonist, a lot of the interesting aspects of legacy he seemed intent on exploring really fizzled with some of his writing and plot choices towards the latter half of the series, and Robinson's insistence on forcing every DC character to ever use the name of Starman (all of whom I liked more than Jack) into his narrative, especially in many of the ways he chose to do so, I found disappointing, and downright wasteful, on so many levels.

Starman, and the relentless praise the series enjoys around this site especially, is actually one of the primary reasons why I will go through the library to check out a book or two of a series that is universally raved about online before purchasing now whenever possible. While I don't wave a banner for Gaiman, Moore, Morrison, et al., I believe all have had their legitimate genius runs on various characters and titles, even though all have had their admitted missteps as well; but, while Robinson seems a reasonably talented writer and by his forwards in the collected editions, a pretty likeable guy, I in no way see how he deserves mentioning in that group. Sandman and Swamp Thing, in particular, are just that much superior to Starman, AND they each have more than a few additional runs, series, novels, or the like on their resume Robinson just doesn't match. Frankly, I'd put him even below the next group of great, if not necessarily visionary, writers as well, such as Claremont, Byrne, Stern, Simonson, Ostrander, and their like, because I wouldn't consider Starman the equal of their respective runs on X-Men, FF, Spider-Man, Thor, Suicide Squad, etc, either. He seems more fittingly grouped with 'reasonably competent but my goodness are they fawned over to nonsensical extremes' examples like Vaughan, Johns, & Snyder.

As far as "under collected", I'm not sure I get that complaint either. I know for a fact the entire Starman run has at least been collected in deluxe trades (after donating the first 2 books my library now has the complete run), and I'm pretty sure also in smaller softcover editions as well... which you can't say for a lot of really good DC runs from in and around that time, including what I consider a far superior run in Ostrander's Spectre. I wish Ostrander, in particular, was that "under collected". You want to talk about deserving more credit...

I think the frustation with it not being collected comes from a couple of different things. Most of the options avaiable, deluxe and old TP, are long out of print and quite a few of them are very expensive. They never finished publishing the softcover versions of the omnibus editions either. They did the first couple of books and then stopped. Whereas a lot of the others series mentioned like sandman and swampthing, and even runs like Claremont on x-men, has come out in sooo many different formats. Sandman alone has come out in TP, New editions TP, hardcover, omnibus, Absolute and that other format I forgot the name of with author notes in them.

[TomSlick]

I didn't care for Lost girls and Nightmare in Silver was a huuuuge disappointment. Also I didn't finish Trigger warning, most of the stories didn't do it for me. There, I did it, do I get a treat?
But other than these I love Moore and Gaiman and none of these works are on the same level of awfulness as Cry for Justice was (no not even the Black Dossier I actually really liked it).

I agree though that Robinson is undercollected, especially Starman.

Lost Girls and Cry for Justice suck equally bad. I'm not sure Gaiman ever wrote anything that bad. It's kind of tough. Somehow Moore managed it. I suspect it had more to do with his wife and whatever fetish/kinks they had going on at the time.

No worries, I found it for you.

Astonishing X-Men: Ghost Box.

I read this. Don't remember it. Yeah, it probably sucked. But, he did have a nice run on a number of third-string X-titles.

I couldn't get thru global frequency myself. I typically dont care for 1-and-done stories anyways, but these were particularly forgettable even tho the premise was cool. Didn't bother finishing the trade

I liked GF at the time. I'd be curious to re-read it and see if I still do.

[GhostPirate]

I think the frustation with it not being collected comes from a couple of different things. Most of the options avaiable, deluxe and old TP, are long out of print and quite a few of them are very expensive. They never finished publishing the softcover versions of the omnibus editions either. They did the first couple of books and then stopped. Whereas a lot of the others series mentioned like sandman and swampthing, and even runs like Claremont on x-men, has come out in sooo many different formats. Sandman alone has come out in TP, New editions TP, hardcover, omnibus, Absolute and that other format I forgot the name of with author notes in them.

Well, in fairness, pretty much everything not Bat, Spider, or X-related (ok, Sandman and Watchmen can be included in that list too) seems to go OOP and slides towards expensive at some point or another, and there's an awful awful lot that could be considered under collected if that's the definition. The point is that the complete series in collected form is still out there available for those that want it, in multiple formats even, if they're patient and/or willing to pay. Maybe just personally, especially since I have zero interest in the series, but I have a hard time defining it that way myself when there are an awful lot of really good series, especially on the DC side, that you can't say the same thing about.

That said, yeah, I don't get why DC wouldn't just finish off the Omni run and/or run off a 2nd printing of the deluxe editions they already have.

[SJNeal]

I read this. Don't remember it. Yeah, it probably sucked. But, he did have a nice run on a number of third-string X-titles.

I loved his late 90's Excalibur run (despite the vocal minority that crucified him for the whole Kitty & Pete Wisdom fling).

[Balakin]

Lost Girls and Cry for Justice suck equally bad. I'm not sure Gaiman ever wrote anything that bad. It's kind of tough. Somehow Moore managed it. I suspect it had more to do with his wife and whatever fetish/kinks they had going on at the time.



I read this. Don't remember it. Yeah, it probably sucked. But, he did have a nice run on a number of third-string X-titles.



I liked GF at the time. I'd be curious to re-read it and see if I still do.

You can write a good kinky book sunstone is the proof. Lost girls was just a boring slog. Nightmare in silver is a doctor who episode written by gaiman but you couldn't tell it's so painfully mediocre.

[TomSlick]

You can write a good kinky book sunstone is the proof. Lost girls was just a boring slog. Nightmare in silver is a doctor who episode written by gaiman but you couldn't tell it's so painfully mediocre.

Agreed. I read the first two Sunstone tpbs. Not bad. I'm not sure I've even heard of that Gaiman book tho.

[Balakin]

Agreed. I read the first two Sunstone tpbs. Not bad. I'm not sure I've even heard of that Gaiman book tho.

might be because it's an episode on tv. of Doctor Who.
or are you referring to my previous comment with Trigger warning? It's not utter crap but it's not as good as his previous short story collection, Smoke and mirrors.

[TomSlick]

might be because it's an episode on tv. of Doctor Who.
or are you referring to my previous comment with Trigger warning? It's not utter crap but it's not as good as his previous short story collection, Smoke and mirrors.

Oh, hahahaha. Yes, re-reading your comment I realize it's TV. On a side note, I haven't read Trigger, either. In fact, I had to google it. Ha. The only novel/book I"ve read by Gaiman is Good Omens, which he co-authored. I really liked that one.

As far as Moore goes, I've tended to stay away from any of his stuff he's published in the past 10 years or so other than the League stories.

[Balakin]

Oh, hahahaha. Yes, re-reading your comment I realize it's TV. On a side note, I haven't read Trigger, either. In fact, I had to google it. Ha. The only novel/book I"ve read by Gaiman is Good Omens, which he co-authored. I really liked that one.

As far as Moore goes, I've tended to stay away from any of his stuff he's published in the past 10 years or so other than the League stories.

The only non loeg I can recall reading from the last couple of years was fashion beast. I quite liked that one.

[evilomar]

I love LOVE Robinson's Starman and it makes no sense why that series went out of print in HC and why it doesn't have an Absolute Edition. However, not everything he has written is gold. Like most people are saying Cry for Justice was really cringe worthy, but lately his Cable has been pretty horrible; adding nothing new to the character.

[CaptCleghorn]

I think Robinson as a writer is right up there with Morrison, Moore, Ellis etc., but he doesn't get quite the same level of respect. Also anything Neil Gaiman writes is automatically praised just because he wrote Sandman. I don't feel it's the same for Robinson

We have a tendency to want to rank and arrange according to a certain hierarchy. All of the writers listed here are great writers. But being able to ascertain who's better and who is liked more? That's much more difficult to properly quantify. Additionally, the writers listed all have their own particular areas. Do you want a straight super-hero story? Robinson is your best bet in this list. The others have earned their fame because they stretched the boundaries and wrote outside the box. James Robinson's is much more like Mark Waid's and Kurt Busiek's than he is like Gaiman and company's. Again, style, not quality.

Starman is revolutionary in that it was a rare American superhero story with a start and a finish. It had the pages to address numerous themes and issues and how they applied to a non-traditional character in a traditional superhero universe. Is there better? Probably. But then we face defining better.

They're all pretty damn good writers.