DC Rebirth - Titans

[SiegePerilous02]

The book is a massive let down.

Dick, Wally, Donna, Roy and Garth, at least when they are no longer teen sidekicks, are the most boring possible combination of characters, and adding in the C-listers from the less than stellar 60s/70s run isn't helping things. The most popular and marketable characters from this property (aside from Dick and Wally) are in different books. Lilith, Gnaark, Bumblebee, etc, probably never took off to the same degree as others for a reason, and I don't see it changing now. The NTT lineup should be used as a basis (with Gar and Raven being the age they are meant to be), but the Titans can't be just chilling in Titans tower fighting the same villains they fought in the 80s. The title needs a serious shot in the arm, with some brand new non-legacy/sidekick characters to add some variety and brand new locations and threats. Abnett is great on Aquaman, but I don't think he is the writer this book desperately needs.

And it should be treated as an actual ensemble. The first arc was heavily Wally focused, and it doesn't sound like it's changed all that much. It may have to due with the way books were written back then and with there being much more actual content within, but all the characters got focus in the NTT era. That doesn't seem to be the case here.

[Frontier]

The book is a massive let down.

Dick, Wally, Donna, Roy and Garth, at least when they are no longer teen sidekicks, are the most boring possible combination of characters, and adding in the C-listers from the less than stellar 60s/70s run isn't helping things. The most popular and marketable characters from this property (aside from Dick and Wally) are in different books. Lilith, Gnaark, Bumblebee, etc, probably never took off to the same degree as others for a reason, and I don't see it changing now. The NTT lineup should be used as a basis (with Gar and Raven being the age they are meant to be), but the Titans can't be just chilling in Titans tower fighting the same villains they fought in the 80s. The title needs a serious shot in the arm, with some brand new non-legacy/sidekick characters to add some variety and brand new locations and threats. Abnett is great on Aquaman, but I don't think he is the writer this book desperately needs.

And it should be treated as an actual ensemble. The first arc was heavily Wally focused, and it doesn't sound like it's changed all that much. It may have to due with the way books were written back then and with there being much more actual content within, but all the characters got focus in the NTT era. That doesn't seem to be the case here.

I think it's more the writing then the roster that's the issue.

If they were all being written well and in-character I doubt the team would come off as boring or stale. But since that's not the case...

[SiegePerilous02]

I think it's more the writing then the roster that's the issue.

If they were all being written well and in-character I doubt the team would come off as boring or stale. But since that's not the case...

It might be a mix of things. Those five characters should probably be in any iconic Titans lineup, but the book needs more unique characters to surround them with or else it becomes Discount Justice League. Because the main 5 are mini versions of more independent, and (arguably) more popular characters. It's not as much of a problem with Dick, but it becomes one for Wally when he can't be THE Flash, and the other three have never had the same success even when they grew out of their sidekick identities the first time and into more generic adult ones.

[WonderScott]

I haven't been able to get into it. I have too much nostalgia for the Wolfman and Pérez run and the epic-ness of their stories. This just disappoints imo.

[Frontier]

It might be a mix of things. Those five characters should probably be in any iconic Titans lineup, but the book needs more unique characters to surround them with or else it becomes Discount Justice League. Because the main 5 are mini versions of more independent, and (arguably) more popular characters. It's not as much of a problem with Dick, but it becomes one for Wally when he can't be THE Flash, and the other three have never had the same success even when they grew out of their sidekick identities the first time and into more generic adult ones.

I dunno.

I can see the need to add more variety to the group, which is why Lilith and Bumblebee are probably in there, but I think the main issue is just that Abnett doesn't have a good handle on most of the Fab Five.

[Outside_85]

I dunno.

I can see the need to add more variety to the group, which is why Lilith and Bumblebee are probably in there, but I think the main issue is just that Abnett doesn't have a good handle on most of the Fab Five.

I agree with this. The line-up is not necessarily a problem for a book like this, if the writer can make them interesting enough for people to care about them or make the book epic enough for people to ignore the shortcomings... Like Dan actually did for Guardians of the Galaxy before they were cool and got BENDISED! Sadly Dan hasn't made this team feel very interesting as of yet and the stories have so far been far from epic.

[Atlanta96]

It's garbage. The characterization is a disgrace, the pacing is a joke, Dan Abnett seems disinterested in the team he's writing about, and overall it's just a containment book to keep fans of these characters happy for a while. The only reason I haven't dropped it is because it's the only Wally West book out right now, and I care about supporting this character/team more than anything else. Doesn't mean its a good story.

[TheCape]

Is a very mixed bag.

[Assam]

As always, I feel the need to say that anyine who thinks the Fab5 is a boring line-up NEEDS to read the Devin Grayson run. No, it wasnt JUST them, but the issues that did center around them and their relationships were spectacular.

Also, I find it kind of annoying that for most of the properties I love that, people say "Oh, you can't expect things to be like that forever. Things need to change." But when it comes to the Titans, a lot of the time these same people are usually like "Everything should be like the NTT again. It should be the same roster too!" Especially as someone who doesnt much care for that era, it's irritating.

[SiegePerilous02]

As always, I feel the need to say that anyine who thinks the Fab5 is a boring line-up NEEDS to read the Devin Grayson run. No, it wasnt JUST them, but the issues that did center around them and their relationships were spectacular.

Also, I find it kind of annoying that for most of the properties I love that, people say "Oh, you can't expect things to be like that forever. Things need to change." But when it comes to the Titans, a lot of the time these same people are usually like "Everything should be like the NTT again. It should be the same roster too!" Especially as someone who doesnt much care for that era, it's irritating.

I know you don't care much for the era, but it's still considered by the majority to be the peak of the franchise, and the characters introduced in that era (Starfire, Cyborg, Raven and Beast Boy being brought in) are the most successful in other media outside of Dick. It doesn't make sense to NOT include them if the Titans property needs to continue. I think it's pretty telling that the adaptations always use them or rehash stories from that time period.

Not that the comics rehashing every detail from that period would work either, which is why some new heroes and villains would be welcomed as well. Just because we want to see that team doesn't mean we want to see them in some variation of the Titans Tower and dealing with the Fearsome Five, Cheshire and the billionth traitor in their ranks yet again either. Maybe an epic Trigon event would be welcome because he hasn't been used since pre-Crisis, but beyond that let's see some legitimately new stuff,

[Assam]

I know you don't care much for the era, but it's still considered by the majority to be the peak of the franchise, and the characters introduced in that era (Starfire, Cyborg, Raven and Beast Boy being brought in) are the most successful in other media outside of Dick. It doesn't make sense to NOT include them if the Titans property needs to continue. I think it's pretty telling that the adaptations always use them or rehash stories from that time period.

Not that the comics rehashing every detail from that period would work either, which is why some new heroes and villains would be welcomed as well. Just because we want to see that team doesn't mean we want to see them in some variation of the Titans Tower and dealing with the Fearsome Five, Cheshire and the billionth traitor in their ranks yet again either. Maybe an epic Trigon event would be welcome because he hasn't been used since pre-Crisis, but beyond that let's see some legitimately new stuff,

Shrugs I disagree with the core of your argument. No real room for discussion.

Also, in regards to Trigon, did you mean used WELL since Pre-Crisis? Because he popped up both Post-Crisis and Nu52. Both times were rather awful.

[SiegePerilous02]

Shrugs I disagree with the core of your argument. No real room for discussion.

I guess, though I didn't say I'd want the original 5 to go away either or that I didn't enjoy their relationships. Dick and Wally are a BROTP, and I loved pre-Crisis Donna and her interactions with Dick and Kory in particular before Crisis ruined her forevermore. For some reason, as with the original 5 X-Men, that specific combination on its own doesn't do much for me.

There must be creative directions the Titans (the original 5, the NTT crew and any new additions) can take, it's just that to a lot of us the current book is not what they need.

Also, in regards to Trigon, did you mean used WELL since Pre-Crisis? Because he popped up both Post-Crisis and Nu52. Both times were rather awful.[/QUOTE]

I must have blocked the Judd Winick and New 52 stuff from my memory for a moment. My mind was trying to protect itself.

[Dataweaver]

When was the last time anyone cared about Gnaark? About a year ago, when he was revamped in Titans Hunt.

[Assam]

I guess, though I didn't say I'd want the original 5 to go away either or that I didn't enjoy their relationships. Dick and Wally are a BROTP, and I loved pre-Crisis Donna and her interactions with Dick and Kory in particular before Crisis ruined her forevermore. For some reason, as with the original 5 X-Men, that specific combination on its own doesn't do much for me.

Part of what makes the Fab5 work so well for me is that, with the exception of Dick and Wally with Garth (Whose relationships can be summed up as "Good friends") everyone of them has a distinct relationship with the others, and I think they're all really interesting, be it Roy and Dick's BROTP, but with an element of envy on Roy's part not found in the DickWally BROTP, Garth's subtle closeness with Donna, etc. (Also, Donna's relationship with Kory is probably half the reason Kory is my favorite of the Wolfman4, and the only one whom, while I don't find her too interesting, I can say I like. Fully admitting to being too harsh on her in the past BTW.)

There must be creative directions the Titans (the original 5, the NTT crew and any new additions) can take, it's just that to a lot of us the current book is not what they need.

Oh don't get me wrong. I don't think Titans as it currently is is very good at all. Being the best Titans book in over a decade isn't a high threshold to cross.

I must have blocked the Judd Winick and New 52 stuff from my memory for a moment. My mind was trying to protect itself.

If only we could block them out permanently.

[SiegePerilous02]

EDIT: double post