Give SCARLET SPIDER a try! Here's why:

[WebLurker]

Couldn't agree more. It's unfortunate that Dan chose to make Ben look exceptionally villainous at some key moments during Clone Conspiracy; if he would've been left extremely grey, I have to assume more people would've been pleased with the story: because Ben shouldn't be a Peter with no morals - the point is that he has more or less the same morals, but is led in different directions than Peter by those same morals.

The only really difference for Ben is the nature of his birth contributing to his life outlook: Ben should be less traditional than Peter (because he is).

I can see Ben taking the kinds of extreme philosophic positions in his heroing that Pete avoids in favor of more comforting and familiar ones.

-Pav, who is dying for the next issue...

Assuming the characterization was the same, you think that the current Ben/"Ben27"/whatever might've been more welcomed if Dan Slott had taken the position that the guy wearing the Egyptian dead dog hat was a new character with original Ben's face and some memories rather than seeming to insist that evil Ben was the original Ben brought back to life? A lot of complaints about evil Ben the character often boil down to that it spits on the original character by turning him into a villain.

[Huntsman Spider]

Assuming the characterization was the same, you think that the current Ben/"Ben27"/whatever might've been more welcomed if Dan Slott had taken the position that the guy wearing the Egyptian dead dog hat was a new character with original Ben's face and some memories rather than seeming to insist that evil Ben was the original Ben brought back to life? A lot of complaints about evil Ben the character often boil down to that it spits on the original character by turning him into a villain.

I could have bought "brought back to life and then tortured until he snapped and broke bad," but some of the actions he took, even with that in mind, were just a bridge too far. I mean, it's one thing if he feels betrayed by Peter specifically invoking Uncle Ben's name as his reason for not joining in on the "New U World," and I could buy him lashing out at Peter, even through his "reanimated" minions, but trying to kill and "reanimate" the entire human race just to validate himself? Yeah, that's where he lost me, and it's been tough sailing ever since. Attempted genocide isn't something you walk back all that easily, and the only thing keeping me holding on is that I understand his reason for doing so in the first place --- he's still trying to grapple with what happened to him, with how he came to exist and how he was reborn, and playing at "resurrecting the dead" was his way of making sense of it all and giving the horrors inflicted on him some semblance of greater meaning and value than just being a deranged science experiment. It also helps that he's seeming to regain something resembling a functional moral compass, or at least showing he's still capable of compassion on some level, so I'm hoping Peter David continues with this angle, delves more deeply into why and how Ben (or "Ben27," if you insist) went to such depths of villainy, since PAD is very good at the psychological and philosophical aspects of comics, and eventually redeems him as a character.

[boots]

trying to kill and "reanimate" the entire human race just to validate himself? Yeah, that's where he lost me, and it's been tough sailing ever since. .

i think the lack of introspection into ben's mindset is what made this hard to swallow. there was no exploration of how his mind got to this point and how he justified these things to himself. there were plot markers sure, but nothing deeper than that. which is jarring to old fans because ben was probably an overly introspective character in the 90s.

i could totally buy that ben would embrace the jackal's original plan as his own in some sort of twist on "following in dad's footsteps" and a super twisted version of power and responsibility. ie: he has the power to bring people back, so it is his responsibility to fix all of his/peter's mistakes...and all that was touched on, but it was such a major shift in character that it needed far more than just a touch.

i get that slott's stuff is more action and plot based than character (though ellis is a master at having small character moments amongst the action. mark millar is hit and miss but can pull that off too), i just think that was not the right approach for this impact this story has had.

[Huntsman Spider]

i think the lack of introspection into ben's mindset is what made this hard to swallow. there was no exploration of how his mind got to this point and how he justified these things to himself. which is jarring to old fans because ben was probably an overly introspective character in the 90s.

i could totally buy that ben would embrace the jackal's original plan as his own as some sort of twist on following in dad's footsteps and a super twisted version of power and responsibility. ie: he has the power to bring people back, so it is his responsibility to fix all of his/peter's mistakes...and all that was touched on, but it is such a major shift in character that it needed far more than just a touch.

i get that slott's stuff is more action and plot based than character (though ellis is a master at having small character moments amongst the action. mark millar is hit and miss but can pull that off too), i just think that was not the right approach for this kind of story.

Pretty much this, and that's also been a big part of where ASM has lost its touch, the lack of introspective, character-focused moments. PAD's been doing a good job picking up that particular dropped ball, but at some point I really would like to see him/Ben tackle what happened in The Clone Conspiracy more directly.

[boots]

Pretty much this, and that's also been a big part of where ASM has lost its touch, the lack of introspective, character-focused moments. PAD's been doing a good job picking up that particular dropped ball, but at some point I really would like to see him/Ben tackle what happened in The Clone Conspiracy more directly.

just to be clear: on the whole, i don't mind action stories. i don't mind that ASM has gone that way- but it's just not the best environment to so drastically change any character. so yeah, we're on the same page for this particular case.

[Scott Taylor]

Pretty much this, and that's also been a big part of where ASM has lost its touch, the lack of introspective, character-focused moments. PAD's been doing a good job picking up that particular dropped ball, but at some point I really would like to see him/Ben tackle what happened in The Clone Conspiracy more directly.

You and me both. So far there has been no sign of regret or even contemplation of the events of Clone Conspiracy on Ben's part. It really seems like the old Ben is still very much dead, dead, dead.

[Pav]

You and me both. So far there has been no sign of regret or even contemplation of the events of Clone Conspiracy on Ben's part. It really seems like the old Ben is still very much dead, dead, dead.

I think that makes sense, though. Ben has a lot to overcome, and it's going to potentially be a traumatic experience if and when he is able to be introspective. It's easier to avoid such thinking, but I doubt Ben can avoid it forever.

-Pav, who trusts in PAD...

[theoneandonly]

Maybe SS should have tied into SE as it could have shown Bens in depth reaction on cap going through a experience similar to his and his musings on how it has changed/shaped him into attempting a ambitious plan to abolish death. He could sympathize with Steve rather than Hydra as he was restored with SS by kobikbut serving the enemy ideology which is basically what happened to Ben that is being revived but been experimented upon by his creator. He could have thus initially shown to be on hydra caps side which could have lead to a interesting conflict with superior octo with both of them serving on the same team but SS after much introspection could have decided to give hidden helping hand much like deadpool to peter specifically during the fight with superior octo and finally revolting outright when hydra bombs Las Vegas. Now it just seems that its occurring in its own poket universe.

[Huntsman Spider]

Maybe SS should have tied into SE as it could have shown Bens in depth reaction on cap going through a experience similar to his and his musings on how it has changed/shaped him into attempting a ambitious plan to abolish death. He could sympathize with Steve rather than Hydra as he was restored with SS by kobikbut serving the enemy ideology which is basically what happened to Ben that is being revived but been experimented upon by his creator. He could have thus initially shown to be on hydra caps side which could have lead to a interesting conflict with superior octo with both of them serving on the same team but SS after much introspection could have decided to give hidden helping hand much like deadpool to peter specifically during the fight with superior octo and finally revolting outright when hydra bombs Las Vegas. Now it just seems that its occurring in its own poket universe.

Could be an interesting idea, though it seems Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider will tackle the fallout of Secret Empire starting in issue 8, given the attack on Las Vegas that Cassandra Mercury is taking charge of providing relief for, with Ben's help. At least, that's what I read from Peter David's interview about it.

[Aioros22]

i think the lack of introspection into ben's mindset is what made this hard to swallow. there was no exploration of how his mind got to this point and how he justified these things to himself. there were plot markers sure, but nothing deeper than that. which is jarring to old fans because ben was probably an overly introspective character in the 90s.

i could totally buy that ben would embrace the jackal's original plan as his own in some sort of twist on "following in dad's footsteps" and a super twisted version of power and responsibility. ie: he has the power to bring people back, so it is his responsibility to fix all of his/peter's mistakes...and all that was touched on, but it was such a major shift in character that it needed far more than just a touch.

i get that slott's stuff is more action and plot based than character (though ellis is a master at having small character moments amongst the action. mark millar is hit and miss but can pull that off too), i just think that was not the right approach for this impact this story has had.

Yeah and this is exactly where PAD needs to go at with Scarlet Spider. The first arc cemented the new status quo and now he needs to direcly deal with the root of the issue so the audience embraces it. If he doesn`t the audience won`t really accept Anubis Head wearing the classic duds.

I think the reassurgence of Marlo/Death in this title is a good sign that he`s going to tackle it. At least I really hope so.

[Scarlet Spider-Man]

Couldn't agree more. It's unfortunate that Dan chose to make Ben look exceptionally villainous at some key moments during Clone Conspiracy; if he would've been left extremely grey, I have to assume more people would've been pleased with the story: because Ben shouldn't be a Peter with no morals - the point is that he has more or less the same morals, but is led in different directions than Peter by those same morals.

The only really difference for Ben is the nature of his birth contributing to his life outlook: Ben should be less traditional than Peter (because he is).

I can see Ben taking the kinds of extreme philosophic positions in his heroing that Pete avoids in favor of more comforting and familiar ones.

-Pav, who is dying for the next issue...

This was the problem. Slott initially tried to sell Ben's actions as grey-area, and it could be argued that it was up until the point he tried to kill Peter. The entire thing fell apart instantly after that. It also made zero sense, seeing as how Ben had previously sacrificed himself to save Peter.

People like to say that Dan Slott has a vast wealth of knowledge regarding Spider-Man's history, but I sure don't see it in his characterizations (Ben, Felicia, Phil, MJ, JJJ, and even Peter at times). It seems that he's familiar with the names, but doesn't really understand the characters.

[Huntsman Spider]

This was the problem. Slott initially tried to sell Ben's actions as grey-area, and it could be argued that it was up until the point he tried to kill Peter. The entire thing fell apart instantly after that. It also made zero sense, seeing as how Ben had previously sacrificed himself to save Peter.

People like to say that Dan Slott has a vast wealth of knowledge regarding Spider-Man's history, but I sure don't see it in his characterizations (Ben, Felicia, Phil, MJ, JJJ, and even Peter at times). It seems that he's familiar with the names, but doesn't really understand the characters.

TV Tropes actually has a name for what you described in your first paragraph: "Jumping Off the Slippery Slope." It's what happens when a previously gray-area character suddenly tilts into straightforward villainy so that the hero (or protagonist) doesn't have to question his opposition to the more morally ambiguous character's actions anymore because the character is now, and presumably "always was," a straight-up villain, no matter how he tried to dress it up until he saw the hero wasn't buying it. It's a very cheap way to end any sort of debate over the morality of the characters' actions with the writer unilaterally declaring one character, usually the hero, to be unambiguously right and the other character to be unambiguously wrong and evil.

[Pav]

TV Tropes actually has a name for what you described in your first paragraph: "Jumping Off the Slippery Slope." It's what happens when a previously gray-area character suddenly tilts into straightforward villainy so that the hero (or protagonist) doesn't have to question his opposition to the more morally ambiguous character's actions anymore because the character is now, and presumably "always was," a straight-up villain, no matter how he tried to dress it up until he saw the hero wasn't buying it. It's a very cheap way to end any sort of debate over the morality of the characters' actions with the writer unilaterally declaring one character, usually the hero, to be unambiguously right and the other character to be unambiguously wrong and evil.

Dan definitely pushed Ben off the slippery slope

But I forgive Dan because it's just kind of his style: he writes comic books that are really comic-booky, and so sometimes his villains twirl their mustaches, y'know?

Also: so Ben tried his hand at being the Jackal! How long did it take Peter to join the Jackal when he thought he was a clone?

I'm glad that PAD has no qualms with writing characters who live in the grey areas.

Random: too bad Jamie Madrox looks to be off the table; I'd love to see him and Ben share a story together!

-Pav, who would want Kaine there as well...

[Huntsman Spider]

Dan definitely pushed Ben off the slippery slope

But I forgive Dan because it's just kind of his style: he writes comic books that are really comic-booky, and so sometimes his villains twirl their mustaches, y'know?

Also: so Ben tried his hand at being the Jackal! How long did it take Peter to join the Jackal when he thought he was a clone?

I'm glad that PAD has no qualms with writing characters who live in the grey areas.

Random: too bad Jamie Madrox looks to be off the table; I'd love to see him and Ben share a story together!

-Pav, who would want Kaine there as well...

Actually a pretty good point. Both were dramatically uncharacteristic, but considering how broken Peter was by the revelation that he was the clone all along and how broken Ben was after the Jackal's torturous murders/"reanimations" of him, it seems like they could have been justifiable if there had been deeper characterization in how they were written. Of course, Peter eventually realized he was wrong for siding with the Jackal because his life still had meaning and value even if he was a clone, so hopefully there could be a similar epiphany for Ben.

And yes, Madrox, Ben, and Kaine would have some interesting interactions as Madrox has dealt with similar issues to theirs in terms of his self-duplication powers. I mean, all of his dupes are still him on some level, or at least reflect different aspects of his character, his feelings, his thoughts, and his desires, so would any of them be all that different from Ben and/or Kaine in regards to the Scarlet Spiders also being reflections of each other (and of Spider-Man/Peter)?

[theoneandonly]

it is enigmatic/irrational that Kaine was ready to sacrifice himself for his 'dad' and never outright ready to kill him but has always had tried to kill his 'brother' Ben for xyz reason but always fawned upon peter making him his favoured 'brother' though not so much after taking the SS mantle.