Changes to the Fantastic Four

[pageturner]

Making Sue suddenly a medical doctor is too much. You could have her become a counselor or something and eventually advance her to Doctor. A surgeon is 10 years of schooling and it ties her too much to a hospital. Surgeons can't be off world when a patient needs treatment.

Also Ben is fine where he is strength wise. He hangs with the Hulks because of his never quit spirit. In some ways that is his true power he doesn't know how to give up. They should ply up his pilot skills though.

[Crimz]

Making Sue suddenly a medical doctor is too much. You could have her become a counselor or something and eventually advance her to Doctor. A surgeon is 10 years of schooling and it ties her too much to a hospital. Surgeons can't be off world when a patient needs treatment.

Also Ben is fine where he is strength wise. He hangs with the Hulks because of his never quit spirit. In some ways that is his true power he doesn't know how to give up. They should ply up his pilot skills though.

I don't want it to happen overnight out of nowhere and there are plenty of ways for her to experience those 10 years quickly without her aging as the MU is crazy that way. In the case of patients it depends if she works in a hospital on Earth or is the doctor for the Future Foundation.

Ben has unfortunately not been able to hang with the Hulk for a very long time. Many other super-strength characters have grown in strength but Ben has stayed the same and got left behind, just look at Secret Empire where he was downed in one hit by Hulk. The others increasing in power would also help stop the problem of Reed solving every issue they have with the villains they face.

[pageturner]

I don't want it to happen overnight out of nowhere and there are plenty of ways for her to experience those 10 years quickly without her aging as the MU is crazy that way. In the case of patients it depends if she works in a hospital on Earth or is the doctor for the Future Foundation.

Ben has unfortunately not been able to hang with the Hulk for a very long time. Many other super-strength characters have grown in strength but Ben has stayed the same and got left behind, just look at Secret Empire where he was downed in one hit by Hulk. The others increasing in power would also help stop the problem of Reed solving every issue they have with the villains they face.

so you just explain she has been in pre med and med school in the past and has done an internship and residency? I don't mind a retcon but that is too extreme.

Hulk is the strongest there is Ben should not be too close to that. Odinson, Herc, and Wonderman are the only ones who should be close.

Leave him with Sasquatch, Colossus, Cage ( I guess) and Namor that is plenty strong enough.

[Crimz]

so you just explain she has been in pre med and med school in the past and has done an internship and residency? I don't mind a retcon but that is too extreme.

Hulk is the strongest there is Ben should not be too close to that. Odinson, Herc, and Wonderman are the only ones who should be close.

Leave him with Sasquatch, Colossus, Cage ( I guess) and Namor that is plenty strong enough.

I never said it should be a retcon as that would make no sense. It should happen now and some time-space stuff could speed things up without her having to age, this is the MU and crazier things happen all the time especially with this family.

Ben used to be lowest of that range of characters (Hulk, Herc etc.) his sheer will got him to hang with them when the time came, the fact that he's not even in that range anymore needs to change. The level he's at now is much lower than he should be, he should be way above Cage and Sasquatch. He's the freaking ever lovin' blue eyed Thing! Him and Johnny need to be stronger otherwise the team will always have to rely on Reed's inventions to save them from the threats they face.

[The Overlord]

A back to the basics approach.
Concentrate on the core four characters and their adventures.
Sorta like what John Byrne did in issue #232.
I would like to see Franklin preschool age and Valeria gone but I know that isn't going to happen. So keep them young and and out of the spotlight.

See I disagree, I think back to basics is the absolutely wrong approach, because I think the FF have been a rut for decades and they have to move forward, not backward. The writers have to stop recycling the same old stories from the Silver Age, the FF are supposed to be explorers, yet they often only explore the same things, over and over again, surely there are parts of the Negative Zone not explored yet, instead we get the same Negative Zone stories with the same villains.

Also speaking of villains, the FF's rogues gallery needs a massive revamp, either make some of these villains more menacing and compelling or sweep them away and create new villains, because a lot of the FF's villains are starting to show their age.

Is it still interesting when the Wizard creates another Frightful Four group to defeat the FF, even though that didn't work the last 400 times he tried it, why doesn't he form a Frightful Fourteen instead? Also why is Wizard a compelling character, the writers often just write him as some cliched super villain and really that is just dull after 50 plus years. Also why is Trapster still an FF villain or a villain at all, when he could have just marketed his glue and become rich, instead of becoming a super villain and how is a guy with a glue gun a threat to the FF?

A lot of these villains need to develop beyond "I am a super villain and I must destroy the FF, mwa, ha, ha, ha!" characterization. It seems like some writers having been trying to move Mole Man away from being an active villain, to someone who just wants to defend his kingdom from outside forces, but other writers put him back into the role of generic super villain. Heck Mad Thinker was more interesting when he tried to become the mentor to the New Warriors, then the generic mad scinitcist he is the FF comics, he is better as morally ambiguous then a just a evil villain, IMO, but the FF writers seem to have no interest writing him that way. Also why not update the Red Ghost? Instead of being a cliched Soviet Scienist from the 60s, why not make him into a more modern left winger, who decries how corporations and the upper class use technology for their own benefit, feeling modern scineice doesn't benefit the working class enough, feeling like Reed contributes to that problem. Now the FF has to deal with a Red Ghost with a more fleshed out ideology then "I am a communist and I must destroy the FF".

I also think the writers have made Reed so intelligent, that they have made him "the god of science" that only Doom is his peer, so how are guys like Wizard, Mad Thinker, Red Ghost, etc intellectual threats to him at all? I think they have to either write Reed's intelligence in a more realistic way, rather then making it a game breaking plot device or come up with a good reason why some of these non Doom villains are any sort of intellectual challenge to Reed.

[JackDaw]

so you just explain she has been in pre med and med school in the past and has done an internship and residency? I don't mind a retcon but that is too extreme.

Hulk is the strongest there is Ben should not be too close to that. Odinson, Herc, and Wonderman are the only ones who should be close.

Leave him with Sasquatch, Colossus, Cage ( I guess) and Namor that is plenty strong enough.

Making Sue a doctor/medic is not something I'd particularly like to see.

But every time I see argument that it can't be done quickly with credibility I have to rub my eyes with disbelief. This is Marvel 616, where people get super powers all the time, etc. And specifically Fantastic Four...where a three year old can be super intelligent, and where a pre-teen kid can create universes...and grow up to be more powerful than Celestials, that are millions of years more advanced than humans.

Sue could become a doctor quickly in zillions of different ways. Reed invents a virtual reality training device. Sue says she's always wanted to be a doc...she uses it, it works, but it immediately afterwards blows up. Reed decides too dangerous ever to make another...there you go, done in one page.

[JackDaw]

I also think the writers have made Reed so intelligent, that they have made him "the god of science" that only Doom is his peer, so how are guys like Wizard, Mad Thinker, Red Ghost, etc intellectual threats to him at all? I think they have to either write Reed's intelligence in a more realistic way, rather then making it a game breaking plot device or come up with a good reason why some of these non Doom villains are any sort of intellectual challenge to Reed.

I wholeheartedly agree that reining in Reed's ultra-intelligence (especially the sheer variety of sciences where he is "top man" or near top man) would improve things substantially.

The difficulty would be bringing it about, given the massive weight of existing continuity...I suppose there are ways of doing it....if so, I think this would be biggest single improvement that could be made.

[Sutekh]

I wholeheartedly agree that reining in Reed's ultra-intelligence (especially the sheer variety of sciences where he is "top man" or near top man) would improve things substantially.

The difficulty would be bringing it about, given the massive weight of existing continuity...I suppose there are ways of doing it....if so, I think this would be biggest single improvement that could be made.

They could go with a sort of retcon that he'd been using his elasticity powers to increase the folds in his brain tissue or something silly, and that the net effect was driving him crazy (or, to be less dramatic, simply making it take longer and longer for him to process information, since he had not only dramatically increased his storage and processing power, but also, by increasing the surface area, made it take longer and longer to simply think, or to retrieve information, as he would increasingly 'get lost in his own mind'). So he'd have to 'wipe the slate clean,' after downloading as much information as he could to external storage, and be 'powered down' intellectually to 'mere' genius/super-genius levels like Stark, Pym, etc.

That said, it seems like a lot of Marvel geniuses could be cheating. Stark's infused his body with nanotech that's connected to his brain cybernetically. Pym's demonstrably able to access bio-matter from another dimension, and increase or decease the mass of his brain without altering his brainpower (if he's as smart at bug size, with a brain the size of a pinhead, as he is at full size, then he's clearly still able to access the 99% of his brain that's in off in Pym Particle-land/Kosmos, and since he's also not apparently any smarter at sixty feet tall, with a brain that Reed Richards could go swimming in, then it stands to reason that all of that big brain is available to him even at human size, and he's totally cheating...). Doom's got a dozen Doombots at any given time that could be parallel processing his thinky-meats.

[Michael Watkins]

Sue being portrayed as smarter/educated

Ben is fine but they could always make him super durable or resistant to pain

Likewise, play up johnny's knowledge of mechanics; have him be the primary caretaker of their vehicles - the idea is that there are no weak links/dummies on the team

Overhaul/upgrade of rogues gallery - few if any bank robber types - mostly rival explorers (frightful four) and other dimensional despots - maybe add Isaac Newton to the threat list

Redefined and more proactive mission

[Michael Watkins]

They could go with a sort of retcon that he'd been using his elasticity powers to increase the folds in his brain tissue or something silly, and that the net effect was driving him crazy (or, to be less dramatic, simply making it take longer and longer for him to process information, since he had not only dramatically increased his storage and processing power, but also, by increasing the surface area, made it take longer and longer to simply think, or to retrieve information, as he would increasingly 'get lost in his own mind'). So he'd have to 'wipe the slate clean,' after downloading as much information as he could to external storage, and be 'powered down' intellectually to 'mere' genius/super-genius levels like Stark, Pym, etc.

That said, it seems like a lot of Marvel geniuses could be cheating. Stark's infused his body with nanotech that's connected to his brain cybernetically. Pym's demonstrably able to access bio-matter from another dimension, and increase or decease the mass of his brain without altering his brainpower (if he's as smart at bug size, with a brain the size of a pinhead, as he is at full size, then he's clearly still able to access the 99% of his brain that's in off in Pym Particle-land/Kosmos, and since he's also not apparently any smarter at sixty feet tall, with a brain that Reed Richards could go swimming in, then it stands to reason that all of that big brain is available to him even at human size, and he's totally cheating...). Doom's got a dozen Doombots at any given time that could be parallel processing his thinky-meats.

Would not surprise me if Pym experienced elevated creativity during his manic episodes. The size changing probably doesn't help as much; with the slowed blood full, at giant size. There's always been an element of strain associated with growth.

[Sutekh]

Would not surprise me if Pym experienced elevated creativity during his manic episodes. The size changing probably doesn't help as much; with the slowed blood full, at giant size. There's always been an element of strain associated with growth.

True, any of these methods of 'cheating' to boost brainpower / processing could have ugly side-effects, as well, and be used to explain away bad choices later... "The nanites made me do it! I totally didn't help clone Thor!"

[Alpha Male]

I would go with different concepts that haven't explored in the pages of FF before like Nanomachines or Quantum Consciousness. What I would do a Final Destination spin to the team and have the four members fates and powers be intertwined with one another. I would reveal that the cosmic storm not only gave them powers but linked their lifeforce and powers as one. They would be able to switch or alternate powers between each other at will meaning that Ben can return to human when he switches powers with another member of the Fantastic Four.

On all of their adventures they would see the shadow of death looming ahead as it would revealed that on the day they got their abilities they were supposed to die. We would later learn that the Fantastic Four are actually anomalies in the timestream who were never meant to survive and the specter of death is forever on their tail.

Aside from that, the Fantastic Four would be able to use their powers in different ways. Ben would be able to project rock like projectiles from his body, Reed would be able to stretch himself into other dimensions, Sue would have astral sight and be able to make objects or other people invisible at will and I haven't decided about Johnny yet.

Lastly, I would use the storyline in Ultimates as a springboard for the Fantastic Four's return to the Marvel Universe landscape. In the pages of the FF we will answer the question, what are the effects of Galactus no longer being the World Devourer? We'll explore how that changed the universe order and it's effects on the overall picture.

[penthotal]

Hickman's run was perfect and sold, without changing anything. It was even able to sustain two books, the second offering a nice variation/evolution of the concept without sacrificing the fundamentals, making big changes or removing classic characters of the franchise. I think FF can sell when there is a very good writer that has a very very good story. So maybe only publish them when you have the right story.

[Crimz]

I would go with different concepts that haven't explored in the pages of FF before like Nanomachines or Quantum Consciousness. What I would do a Final Destination spin to the team and have the four members fates and powers be intertwined with one another. I would reveal that the cosmic storm not only gave them powers but linked their lifeforce and powers as one. They would be able to switch or alternate powers between each other at will meaning that Ben can return to human when he switches powers with another member of the Fantastic Four.

On all of their adventures they would see the shadow of death looming ahead as it would revealed that on the day they got their abilities they were supposed to die. We would later learn that the Fantastic Four are actually anomalies in the timestream who were never meant to survive and the specter of death is forever on their tail.

Aside from that, the Fantastic Four would be able to use their powers in different ways. Ben would be able to project rock like projectiles from his body, Reed would be able to stretch himself into other dimensions, Sue would have astral sight and be able to make objects or other people invisible at will and I haven't decided about Johnny yet.

Lastly, I would use the storyline in Ultimates as a springboard for the Fantastic Four's return to the Marvel Universe landscape. In the pages of the FF we will answer the question, what are the effects of Galactus no longer being the World Devourer? We'll explore how that changed the universe order and it's effects on the overall picture.

I think the concept would be cool for an alternate reality FF, but it won't work for the 616 ones as both Ben and Johnny have died before and Ben lives for thousands of years. I do agree with them carrying on with concepts the Ultimates left though.

In the powers you suggested, Sue can already see things that are invisible and make other things invisible too.

Hickman's run was perfect and sold, without changing anything. It was even able to sustain two books, the second offering a nice variation/evolution of the concept without sacrificing the fundamentals, making big changes or removing classic characters of the franchise. I think FF can sell when there is a very good writer that has a very very good story. So maybe only publish them when you have the right story.

Hickman did change things. He introduced the future foundation and increased the family by having them practically adopt several kids. He showed Franklin and Valeria's future and gave Ben the ability to turn human once a year. I think there are other changes that I can' think of right now.

The only issue is that writers after Hickman either ignored them or put his changes in the background.

[Marvel Forever]

Crimz - I will go along with Sue becoming a nurse. A physician might be a bit much, unless the change happened gradually. However, in order to support this upgrade in her intellect, there should be a decrease in her invisiblity/force field powers. She has become way too powerful in recent decades.