MCU: How different would the X-men be in Disney's hands?

[TooFlyToFail]

We need cartoons and video games. That’s all I care for

Not if they suck, like they've been doing for years now.

[SpiderClops]

1) I agree with this article: https://www.google.com/amp/amp.theda...-movie-formula I could add in a few specifics like how every origin story has to have its throw away love interest and yada yada, But I won’t bother.

I literally said, don't bother if your answer is action+humour+mostly lighthearted tone=formulaic story telling, yet you link an article which pretty much says the exact same thing:

Spider-Man: Homecoming is merely the latest example of Marvel’s adherence to its formula: bright primary hues; brisk banter; rise-fall-rise narrative arcs; predictable dramatic and comedic beats; and special-effects sequences that substitute coherence for zippiness and flash.

2) common tropes aren’t formulas. Logan set itself apart in the execution, and I think Mangold did a great job on that. Basically no movie plot is going to be 100% original and every movie is going to use some common writing tropes. The execution is crucial, and MCU movies rely on similar execution... which is why directors like Edgar Wright get the boot when they try to diverge from the mold. On that note, I found the scenes that were obviously Wright’s handiwork to be the most memorable of Ant Man.

I don't agree at all. The article you linked literally describes common tropes. I don't think Logan sets itself apart from execution anymore than MCU movies. Logan also has very predictable drama and overall story.

3) Marvel’s movies aren’t bad. They are entertaining. But they are made to fit into the same mold. A successful mold, obviously, but I personally appreciate superhero movies more that take more risks and feel different. Marvel is going to keep doing what works for them and that’s fine.. but I’d rather take a chance on Fox since now they’re more willing to play with the genre, instead of hope Disney takes the X-Men since I already know what to expect from them.

MCU itself is a huge risk. They are the one who started this whole cinematic universes(I know they existed before, but never on this scale. They were mostly just cool references like Tarantino movies or afterthought crossovers like Alien vs Predator, Freddy vs Jason.)Their movies are very versatile. Ant-Man is a heist movie, Winter Soldier is a political thriller, GotG are space opera. They mix genres, which I think is harder than making a straight up genre movie with plasting mutant names in it.

[Indigo_Lady]

More merchandise certainly would make me happy, and I've never been a fan of Singer's vision of the X-men. Maybe we would actually get some movies that don't revolve around Xavier, Mystique and Magneto.

[SpiderClops]

Here's a video that explains my Homecoming criticism:



Fox has always gotten it's leading characters (main characters of the stories in their movies) right.

You said you don't care if the movie is not traditional to comics, as long as it is interesting. Then you go and post a video that criticizes Homecoming for not being a proper Spider-Man movie? Double standards.

And that video is wrong in so many places. The guy doesn't even know what a Deus Ex Machina is. The suit did not solve all of his problems, if anything he became worse at being superhero when he unlocked all the features. Peter does struggle with his everyday life and being a superhero, he ditched Liz's party("Spider-Man is not a trick"), missed that science competition, ditched Liz at Homecoming. The point of getting the suit back is that now he has earned it.

[Jaddor]

I literally said, don't bother if your answer is action+humour+mostly lighthearted tone=formulaic story telling, yet you link an article which pretty much says the exact same thing:

I don't agree at all. The article you linked literally describes common tropes. I don't think Logan sets itself apart from execution anymore than MCU movies. Logan also has very predictable drama and overall story.

MCU itself is a huge risk. They are the one who started this whole cinematic universes(I know they existed before, but never on this scale. They were mostly just cool references like Tarantino movies or afterthought crossovers like Alien vs Predator, Freddy vs Jason.)Their movies are very versatile. Ant-Man is a heist movie, Winter Soldier is a political thriller, GotG are space opera. They mix genres, which I think is harder than making a straight up genre movie with plasting mutant names in it.

Ant-Man is a heist movie? huh? we saw not the same thing. here I was thinking this was their mOst child friendly movie before AOU.

Winter Soldier is a political thriller? I liked it when it was called SKYFALL.

MCU movies are not versatile, they are all the same poprcon silly flick that fail in story and content.

the disney agenda is failing big time Regardless of how it is sold to xfans.

[Jokerz79]

Ant-Man is a heist movie? huh? we saw not the same thing. here I was thinking this was their mOst child friendly movie before AOU.

Winter Soldier is a political thriller? I liked it when it was called SKYFALL.

MCU movies are not versatile, they are all the same poprcon silly flick that fail in story and content.

the disney agenda is failing big time Regardless of how it is sold to xfans.

Critical Acclaim and Massive Box Offices if that's failing I hope they continue to fail for years to come.

As for Ant-Man and Winter Soldier sorry but I have to wonder if you actually see the MCU films given you rarely get them right.

[WebLurker]

Ah, importance to own franchise and comic tv shows and marvel animation and just redefining what comic cartoons are thanks to the adult content and deep story telling. You ingoring this will not stop it from been factual.

Dude, I like animation and read up on it. As far as I can tell, X-Men the cartoon was a drop in the bucket as far as animation itself goes.

The xmen cartoons has a lot to do with the mcu because it shows that Disney fails at making xmen movies if they can not make their own movies as compelling as tas.

That's a highly subjective opinion. Secondly, a cartoon is different from a movie series, in a variety of different ways (the time limits per installments, for example).

Two different medium? Not really since TAS was meant to appeal to grown ups first and kids second.

Got a reference for that? (Also, being "mature" and serious doesn't mean that it's also written for adults as well. See "Pinky and the Brain.")

Ah spidey and xmen. The marvel two big 2 that succeeded in every medium for more than 50 years and counting. Let me put it this way. Like DC, Spidey is superman, xmen was batman. Superman is DC most iconic hero but batman has the better stories, better content and the bigger fandom and became big enough to in a way outgrow DC. That is what X-Men is to marvel.

I don't think X-Men has quite the same level of popularity in the franchise as Batman does in DC, but interesting analogy.

Xmen tas and xmen evolution. Both good shows both superior to mcu movies. Its laughable to me at this point to think any mcu movies can be as thick or compelling as the last episodes of evolution.

The Apocalypse story arc? Well, Winter Soldier would qualify, IMHO. So would other stuff, since being gritty and serious is not the only way to make a compelling story. However, I don't think you'd listen.

Lol. Wolverine and the xmen had more impact than TAS.LMAO. NO.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "impact," to be honest, so I'm not sure how to respond to that.

Evolution was quite silly on occasion, MCU Disney are always silly so silly that even their own actors quit.

My understanding was that most of the turnover was due to salary negotiations not working out or scheduling conflicts.

marvel animation gives silly a new name...

I haven't been keeping up with them, so I couldn't say.

If the deal was best sony, it would have reflected. The film was kind of a flop, it was forgettable and it divided the spidey fanbase.

According to Wikipedia, Homecoming was the highest grossing superhero movie on the world-wide box office as of the end of Sept., and the sixth largest Marvel-based movie on record. It also surpassed projected estimates of its profits.

Homecoming scored 92% Certified Fresh on Rotten Tomatoes (compared to SM1's 89% Certified Fresh, SM2's 94% Certified Fresh, SM3's 63% fresh, AMS1's 73% Certified Fresh, and ASM2's 52% rotten).

While only fans can only speak for themselves as to how they liked the movie and how memorable it was (speaking as a fan, I didn't like all the creative decisions and I will concede some of the earlier ones were more memorable), but the film was anything but a flop.

If the deal was best sony would stopped their furture plans and people would not want sam ramimi back.

Not sure about the latter, but as far as the former goes, look at it this way; before Homecoming, Sony was struggling to make their Spidey spinoffs. Now, they are getting things into production. Between that and a successful movie that they helped, make, I think the deal was in their favor.

The deal was a disaster for sony and Disney and they know it...ah all that fake hype and at the end ...nothing.

As pointed out before, that is false, based on the evidence. An apple is an apple, regardless of whoever tells you it's a banana.

Ah yes...well received because it is fun.

I'm sure that didn't hurt. While there is drama, fun is a key part of the character.

Sorry but we grew up at a time when spiderman was well received because sam raimi used him as a character study to be the every man and not some tool to sell toys like disney.

The Raimi movies are my most favorite piece of the Spidey franchise. However, I think Homecoming did do a character study, through Spidey maturing thanks to the experiences he went through in the film. Not the exact same story arc as the Raimi version, but that's fine. Why'd we want to see the exact same thing play out again?

Nope, did not tear any series down, i just said the facts on why other mcu ip are bad and need to be lumped together branded by disney and the reason xmen should be kept away for xmen’s own credibility and reputation.

Case in point.

We do not want a series like xmen that inspired the Nolan batman movies to become about jokes and mindless fun.

Not mindless, but some humor to offset all the drama. Even Logan, which committed to being a serious drama, knew to break the tension every so often (and had some of the funniest moments in the series). FIY, how do we know that Nolan was inspired by the X-Men movies when making his Batman stuff? Has he confirmed it, or are you guessing based on both being a more dramatic take on the comic book genre?

At the core of xmen is drama and grounded stuff and for a film that has only 2.5 hours.,, that is what should matter most. legion that is a tv show of 8 episodes had more drama than action.

I don't think anyone's arguing that X-Men is primarily a drama (although All-New Wolverine the comic does show that you can do comedy alongside that and still make it work). I'm not. As I said before, I like that it's a more serious series. It adds variety to the stuff I watch.

I did not cherry pick, it is becoming a collective opinion by many film artists that mcu movies are awful. Funny they never said so in the days of X2, Batman begins, spidermn 2 (early 2000s) the genre had real credibility then.

Funny that you praise Spider-Man 2 despite it being a proto-MCU movie in tone and style and as un-X-Men-like as you can get.

You should read more about norse mythology. Raganrok stands of gritty and serious...

Marvel's Thor has never been faithful to the myths. Who care if it is now as long as the movie itself is good?

...and The mandarin was a real terrorist, They are not comedians or light hearted.

I liked that twist, but I wouldn't blame others for not.

It is of fact that daredevil is on the internet and not in film, at least fox could make a movie of daredevil because fox can handle the content. Mcu can’t. That is fact not speculation.

It is a fact that MCU Daredevil is a streamed show and that another company made a Daredevil movie. However, unless you have access to production notes or can point to interviews and statements, your theory that the MCU movies will not do serious films is pure speculation.

You not seeing thor 3 does not stop you knowing what the film is like.

Yes it does. That's not up for debate. You cannot know how a movie will turn out until you see it. Fact.

[WebLurker]

pick up your internet card you were trying to give me.

I don't understand what you mean by that.

Ah, but claremont is the godfather of xmen, he made these series,.

X-Men was made by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby. Chris Claremont didn't come onto the scene until much later, although he did leave his mark on the franchise as we know it.

What he says goes when it comes to films. Claremont is far more credible than Disney on how to make an xmen movie. fact.

Appeal to authority. Claremont may be skilled in writing comics, but he's not an authority on writing screenplays. You can make the shift, but what works in a book may not work onscreen.

LOL.......If you don’t want to see an mcu xmen movies, your posts will not even be here trying to make xmen look as generic as the mcu so it can fit in there. No thanks

Actually, I'm posting these because I disagree with your blanket statements and I kind of agree with Hobbes:

birds.jpg

Go ahead and see my activity elsewhere on the forum. I've posted repeatedly that I want Fox to continue their X-Men movie series and that I think integrating it into the MCU would be next to impossible to do in a logical way at this point. The upshot here is you're calling me a liar and I don't appreciate it.

Hm, do you know the deadpool film was made because the director hated mcu movies. ITS Chris Nolan 2.0 type of mcu hatred.

I recall it was made because the public got interested in it when Ryan Reynolds posted test footage of the character, and he did that because he loved the character and wanted to make the film.

HM, Last Stand, Days of Future Past, and Apocalypse. DID YOU JUST PUT dofp In that category.

Yes I did. Ending with a huge battle to save the city/world/whatever is a very common final act in superhero movies across the board and X-Men is no different (although MCU's Doctor Strange ended with him undoing the battle instead, reversing the formula...but wait, the MCU movies are always exactly the same, so we can't talk about that! ).

Yikes, this is the same Dofp that killed the so called first serious mature mcu movie weeks later. Poor winter soldier, got screwed by DOFP on how to tell a real deep story in comics.

Since the MCU has been wildly successful, I don't think Marvel is crying over that. Much like Pierce, they worried about the whole fleet, not the single ship. (Personally, I like Winter Solider better than Days of Future Past, but both of those are within my top five favorite comic book movies, so I can see why some would rank the other higher).

No I just described all the mcu movies ask john landis.

I don't have to, I've seen them all myself except for Thor 3 (and why haven't I, anyways? )

there is a reason why apocalypse no one gave it a pass when it was coming after something as compelling and as dramatic as dofp that reminded may critics of TDK and the great days of X2.

Never saw the Nolan Batman stuff, so I can's speak to that. I liked Apocalyse pretty well, however, I think the main problem is that the formula of Xavier and Magneto's personal conflict is wearing thin after six movies (how may more ways can we see Magneto flip from hero/ally to enemy and back again?). It was also a little uneven and could've had less fat on the plotline.

DOFP is not avengers 1 and 2 where avengers 2 still got a pass because it was as indispensable as avengers 1 and no one cared or had to think deep like they do in xmen movies.

One of the things I really liked about Avengers 2 was how it had the characters dealing with the question of whether they were the solution or part of the problem ("Ultron thinks we're monsters. We're what's wrong with the world. This isn't just about beating him. It's about whether he's right.")

9 years, MCU cannot even make a film like DOFP...

No, they've made other ones that have their own themes and ideas. A bit different.

...they see it as too deep, too dark and Adult friendly...

That's not the only way to make a good movie with a meaningful story.

...well that is not my problem as a fan of xmen.

So why do you have something to prove, then?

Did you ever see the Justice League cartoon "Flash and Substance" (Batman and Orion attend a ceremony honoring the Flash and chaos ensures)? You really remind me of Orion in this scene (2:08 - 2:22), in regards to your thoughts on why the MCU is bad:

[Carabas]

Spider-Man: Homecoming is merely the latest example of Marvel’s adherence to its formula: bright primary hues; brisk banter; rise-fall-rise narrative arcs; predictable dramatic and comedic beats; and special-effects sequences that substitute coherence for zippiness and flash.

Good god!
It is almost like the people behind te MCU like the kind of old-fashioned superhero stories Marvel was built on!!!

[TooFlyToFail]

You said you don't care if the movie is not traditional to comics, as long as it is interesting. Then you go and post a video that criticizes Homecoming for not being a proper Spider-Man movie? Double standards.

And that video is wrong in so many places. The guy doesn't even know what a Deus Ex Machina is. The suit did not solve all of his problems, if anything he became worse at being superhero when he unlocked all the features. Peter does struggle with his everyday life and being a superhero, he ditched Liz's party("Spider-Man is not a trick"), missed that science competition, ditched Liz at Homecoming. The point of getting the suit back is that now he has earned it.

1) It's not a double standard as I didn't find the movie that interesting at all. If they were going to change things, fine, just make sure it's more interesting than what is already there for your main character. That's not the case here.

2) Peter in this movie only struggles because he wants to, for the most part. Until this movie, for months, he goes around seeking things to do as Spider-Man, rather than live his own life. He's supposedly smart, but he's still in complete fanboy, and power fantasy, mode after clearly being ignored Stark, and Hogan. If Stark needs him, he'll send for him, because Stark easily found him before. So no, his struggles aren't natural, but forced for comedic effect.

So yeah, "Spider-Man is not a party trick", but I'll put school, and having a social life, to the side to fanboy to a guy who's too busy to care, for MONTHS.

If anything, it should've been established that he was a successful hero during the months up to the movie. That way him struggling with life makes sense, because he's been clearly improving the lives of every one.

Also, he's been Spider-Man for a long time, and for some reason he doesn't have great coordination skills, or at least he seems way less effective as a fighter than he was in Civil War, where he was casually knocking around BOTH the Winter Soldier and Falcon. In those months, prior to Homecoming, he should've been improving his actual skills. And are we really buying that he would wait until now to tinker with his idol's suit? BS.

3) Yeah, his relationship with Liz is hardly that. Hell, the fact that his crush's dad is the villain of the movie leads to literally no new character dynamics. Vulture is like yeah, I'm gonna kill everyone in my way, and when he finds out that the boy his daughter likes is also Spider-Man...literally nothing changes. No real hesitation, or moral dilemma, that's he's 1) going to kill a minor, 2) that said minor is someone his daughter cares about, or 3) that if he killed Spider-Man, then Iron Man (and other Avengers) would likely come and rain hell, if not just kill him. He just like "my daughter likes you, so eh, but if you bother me again I'll kill you without hesitation." There's nothing beyond that.

It would've also had been interesting to see Peter actually stay at the dance, and struggle with the dilemma that if he goes after Vulture he could be ruining Liz's family. It's one thing to beat up bad guys with no ties to yourself, but this is one he's got personal attachments to. That would have been showing his struggle.

These are problems I had with the movie, and why it's not interesting.

[TooFlyToFail]

Good god!
It is almost like the people behind te MCU like the kind of old-fashioned superhero stories Marvel was built on!!!

Yeah, but damn near every MCU movie is like that.

[SpiderClops]

1) It's not a double standard as I didn't find the movie that interesting at all. If they were going to change things, fine, just make sure it's more interesting than what is already there for your main character. That's not the case here.

Then don't post things that specifically criticizes for it not being a proper Spider-Man movie. Instead post something that criticizes for its failing as a movie in general.
Also, "if you change things, make sure it's better than comics"... yeah that applies to X-Men movies way more than it does MCU.

2) Peter in this movie only struggles because he wants to, for the most part. Until this movie, for months, he goes around seeking things to do as Spider-Man, rather than live his own life. He's supposedly smart, but he's still in complete fanboy, and power fantasy, mode after clearly being ignored Stark, and Hogan. If Stark needs him, he'll send for him, because Stark easily found him before. So no, his struggles aren't natural, but forced for comedic effect.

I'm not even sure what are you trying to say by this post. Can you tell me these "forced struggle" parts?
On a side note though, you do know that Peter is a science nerd and has always been a fanboy to guys like Reed Richards and Tony Stark?

So yeah, "Spider-Man is not a party trick", but I'll put school, and having a social life, to the side to fanboy to a guy who's too busy to care, for MONTHS.

Umm, a teenage superhero gets to have a chance of being an Avenger, of course he's going to put his social life behind that. And that thinking is wrong, that's one the points of the movie. You know what Spider-Man wanted to do in Amazing Spider-Man #1(1963)? Join Fantastic Four, and only refused because he found out they don't make money off of superheroing. This Peter Parker is more mature than that, he wants to become an Avenger because he wants to help more people. And there's nothing wrong with being a little ambitious.

If anything, it should've been established that he was a successful hero during the months up to the movie. That way him struggling with life makes sense, because he's been clearly improving the lives of every one.

WHAT?!

Also, he's been Spider-Man for a long time, and for some reason he doesn't have great coordination skills, or at least he seems way less effective as a fighter than he was in Civil War, where he was casually knocking around BOTH the Winter Soldier and Falcon.

Finally, some valid criticism.

In those months, prior to Homecoming, he should've been improving his actual skills. And are we really buying that he would wait until now to tinker with his idol's suit? BS.

You do know that Homecoming takes place immediately after Civil War, right? Why would he tinker with his suit for no reason? He didn't even know many of its functions. They only tinkered with it to remove the tracker(which he didn't know about prior) and they found that it had a "training wheels protocol"(which again he didn't know about).

3) Yeah, his relationship with Liz is hardly that. Hell, the fact that his crush's dad is the villain of the movie leads to literally no new character dynamics. Vulture is like yeah, I'm gonna kill everyone in my way, and when he finds out that the boy his daughter likes is also Spider-Man...literally nothing changes. No real hesitation, or moral dilemma, that's he's 1) going to kill a minor, 2) that said minor is someone his daughter cares about, or 3) that if he killed Spider-Man, then Iron Man (and other Avengers) would likely come and rain hell, if not just kill him. He just like "my daughter likes you, so eh, but if you bother me again I'll kill you without hesitation." There's nothing beyond that.

Umm, that's what supervillains do. You know, that's why they're the bad guys.

It would've also had been interesting to see Peter actually stay at the dance, and struggle with the dilemma that if he goes after Vulture he could be ruining Liz's family. It's one thing to beat up bad guys with no ties to yourself, but this is one he's got personal attachments to. That would have been showing his struggle.

Ah, X-Men movie stuff is rubbing off, I see. Seeing Magneto get forgiven too many times and thinking it's okay will do that to a person.
There is no moral dilemma. A homecoming date means nothing compared to a supervillain who's stealing millions of dollars worth of stuff, who's bazooka alien guns get sold into black market and get into the hands of common thugs. I loved that Peter's decision was so quick, that he is so mature that he understands that just because the supervillain is the dad of the girl he likes, doesn't changes anything.

These are problems I had with the movie, and why it's not interesting.

Okay.

[Beaubier]

Lmfao. You way oversimplified the article, but that’s ok. I knew you were going to disagree with the article anyway as you’ve made your stance very clear.

Anyway, I stated my opinion, and we disagree. I’m leaving it at that.

[Alan2099]

The X-men movies and the rest of the marvel movies have almost the exact same style. The only real differences is the X-men movie don't do it nearly as well, keep retelling the same story points with the same characters,and and seem to think it's fine if the character only vaguely resembles the way they're supposed to be in the movies.

The X-men movies aren't really that deep or serious. They just act like they are and it rarely works.

Logan was an exception sure. Deadpool was Not. It's just another Marvel movie except with an R rating.

[SpiderClops]

Lmfao. You way oversimplified the article, but that’s ok. I knew you were going to disagree with the article anyway as you’ve made your stance very clear.

Anyway, I stated my opinion, and we disagree. I’m leaving it at that.

No, I didn't. I read it again. The article pretty much says, "Homecoming is same MCU formula because humour, bright colors, yada yada yada." And it says Wonder Woman breaks the formula. Are you kidding me? The author is unhappy that directors and studio have creative differences. Oh boy, never heard such thing in Hollywood! All other big studios let the creators do whatever the hell they want! Cruel Disney!