Joss Whedon Is a ‘Hypocrite Preaching Feminist Ideals,’ Ex-Wife Kai Cole Says

[Old Man Ollie 1962]

Neither of these qualities make a show better or worse.

Facetious or tongue and cheek dialogue can wrest the authenticity from a serious issue or subject matter.

[Red Wolf]

Like the dumb ass Buffy Thanksgiving episode during season four. **** that noise.

[FishyZombie]

Yikes! Hell hath no fury, eh Joss?

[Vegan Daddy]

I believe it.

[Carabas]

Might make it less annoying. You hear his characters talk, it can be a nightmare.

Then watch something else, because the Buffyspeak is one of the main attractions.

[Carabas]

Facetious or tongue and cheek dialogue can wrest the authenticity from a serious issue or subject matter.

It can but it didn't in this case.

[Mark Trail]

being a horrible husband (if true) doesn't take away his feminist status ...

No. However, sleeping with subordinates/employees (which he allegedly did) does. So does blaming said subordinates for the affairs because they were "needy" and "aggressive" (which he allegedly did). So does essentially bragging about the power he had and saying this is what men were "taught" to do as hunter/gatherers (which he allegedly did).

[Shellhead]

No. However, sleeping with subordinates/employees (which he allegedly did) does. So does blaming said subordinates for the affairs because they were "needy" and "aggressive" (which he allegedly did). So does essentially bragging about the power he had and saying this is what men were "taught" to do as hunter/gatherers (which he allegedly did).

I'm glad that you used the word "allegedly," because so far there no facts in evidence, just her allegations. And even if we took her words at face value, then we also need to take into account her alleged mental illness (PTSD) which could be distorting her perception of the past.

[Surf]

Might make it less annoying. You hear his characters talk, it can be a nightmare.

This. His use of action and monsters hardly got it back to baseline for me... To this day fuckin' Zander enough already.
I liked Angel better too.

His best character was that Jamaican(?) vampire hunter that showed in some season down the line, with the heavy accent that was kinda unnatural. She was a cutie and an ass kicker.

[Coin Biter]

Creators making work which espouses certain ideals which they allegedly don't live up to in their personal life does not make them hypocrites.

If Joss Whedon written a statement a bit like this: "I, Joss Whedon, do hereby certify that I have always lived my life in accordance with the highest feminist ideals and have created fictional work which perfectly reflects not only my personal beliefs but also is expected and can be taken as a personal guarantee of my own surpassing virtue" then yes, I guess he could be regarded as a hypocrite.

Has Joss Whedon done that?

[Mark Trail]

Creators making work which espouses certain ideals which they allegedly don't live up to in their personal life does not make them hypocrites.

If Joss Whedon written a statement a bit like this: "I, Joss Whedon, do hereby certify that I have always lived my life in accordance with the highest feminist ideals and have created fictional work which perfectly reflects not only my personal beliefs but also is expected and can be taken as a personal guarantee of my own surpassing virtue" then yes, I guess he could be regarded as a hypocrite.

Has Joss Whedon done that?

While not using the exact words you describe, Whedon has definitely spent a good part of his public life talking about how personally "woke" he is to feminism. And, if you believe his ex-wife, he more or less told her that her suspicions about him were caused by the fact that, as a feminist, he just liked to be around women.

[BushidoBlade2]

Of course Buffy being a total badass who not just fights monsters but kills them by the busloads is not all that made Buffy The Vampire Slayer a empowering, feminist show.

Charmed was also about badass women with superpowers killing demons, and that show was only slightly more empowering than Baywatch.

Then what was it that made it an empowering feminist show besides that which was done a million times before it? Because all I'm hearing from the other poster is "she fights and kills things."

What makes Charmed not as empowering as Buffy?

Again you didn't listen. Every Nightmare on Elm Street film and 80's slasher has Freddy terrorizing the main girl and her friends until she is all out of options and has no choice but to fight back or die.

Buffy spends the whole season looking for bad guys to beat and the last one is just a particularly dangerous one. Buffy was stopping the Master and his minions all season until he was free, then she confronted him knowing that the she was destined to die doing so and did it anyways because she felt compelled to stop him. She wasn't terrorized by him all season until the last episode where she realized she had no other option and went from season long victim to reluctant hero.

Why do you make it sound as if something is wrong with the final girl having no choice but to back or die? That's very empowering in and of itself imo.

No. Buffy was terrorized by the Master all season. Having to deal with the big bad's minions counts as being terrorized by them. And what you just described about facing the master is literally the same description you have for the final girl right above it. Buffy is a girl whose friends are terrorized by the monster of the week and she has no choice but to fight back.

Look how many complex relationships Buffy has with other female characters: her mother and sister, Willow, Faith, Cordelia, Tara, Jenny, Glory, the Potential Slayers, and any number of one shots or guest stars in any given episode. And that's not getting into the complex stuff these other women have independent of her

Those relationships really weren't that complex. Buffy's mother was barely featured in the show beside a quick scene or two until they decided to kill her off. Any development with Dawn happened off-screen/in those fake memories the monks crafted. Willow couldn't even help Buffy out with a bill when she was struggling. Buffy didn't even get to know Faith and treated her more like an annoyance than someone who shares her burden. Cordelia got her shine in Angel. On Buffy she was only used to nag Buffy. Tara and Buffy had like one episode where it felt like they were actual friends otherwise Tara was just Willow's girlfriend and a side character when Buffy was on screen. Buffy and Jenny barely did anything together. Like Tara, she came in tow with another character, this being Giles. Glory and Buffy would literally just punch each other every time they were on screen together. The potential slayers, we barely knew any of them. They were just background faces and canon fodder mostly. Her relationship with them could've been better but it was way too late into the season.

A final girl is like Ridley in Alien (I'll give you Aliens, but that was different in that it was a sequel after the trope was played out) where she wasn't really a hero, she was being stalked as her group was picked off one by one by one, until she was the last one trying to survive and had to go on a little offense to get away or die. She wasn't proactive. She was prey that survived long enough to fight back at the end.

Buffy was feminist because she subverted those tropes and turned the victim into the hero.

I'm still not understanding how she subverted those tropes considering that all slayers, including Buffy, died after less than a year of being a vampire slayer.

Then watch something else, because the Buffyspeak is one of the main attractions.

No it isn't. Normal people are actually bothered by Buffy speak as it comes off extremely childish too most people. It's also a Whedon trope that many of us are tired of because it's so predictable and off putting that every single character is witty and quippy.

[AndrewCrossett]

While not using the exact words you describe, Whedon has definitely spent a good part of his public life talking about how personally "woke" he is to feminism. And, if you believe his ex-wife, he more or less told her that her suspicions about him were caused by the fact that, as a feminist, he just liked to be around women.

If Whedon was just "White Knighting" this whole time to get with girls, he certainly did so in a way that had a major positive cultural impact on feminism. An impact that's been the topic of multiple books and theses and dissertations. Seems like hiring a hooker would have been a lot easier, if that's what he was after.

These allegations don't square with the attitudes his former cast members and writers and colleagues have displayed toward him, or the "Bill Cosby Jr." narrative people are trying to gin up against him based on the words of a single angry person.

Normal people are actually bothered by Buffy speak as it comes off extremely childish too most people. It's also a Whedon trope that many of us are tired of because it's so predictable and off putting that every single character is witty and quippy.

Translation: "I am actually bothered by Buffy speak as it comes off extremely childish to me. It's a Whedon trope that I am tired of because I find it so predictable and off putting that every single character is witty and quippy."

Fixed it for you. Your original statement was plainly contradicted by observable facts.

[TheLastDalek]

This might sound like an insensitive thing to say, but why should I care if Josh is a bit of a shitty person? His good work is still good and his less than stellar work is still less than stellar. What kind of person Josh is has no impact on that.

It's sad what happened to Kai (assuming this is true) but frankly it's not my problem.

[Red Wolf]

"I am actually bothered by Buffy speak as it comes off extremely childish to me. It's a Whedon trope that I am tired of because I find it so predictable and off putting that every single character is witty and quippy."

Yeah, Something along those lines.