Johnny Storm bisexual?

[maxhilary]

On the topic of Living Lightning, I just looked him up again. He debuted in 1990. And he wasn't revealed as gay until 2005, in Great Lakes Avengers. Writer Dan Slott said about the decision : "He's gay. Get over it. Previous girlfriends? Beards. Or relationships that just didn't work—because Miguel hadn't come to terms yet with who he really is. Miguel is a gay superhero and a wonderful role model." So this character was previously seen dating women, which Slott said was just a part of him still coming to terms with it. And it doesn't seem like he was created to be a gay character in the first place. A 15 year difference separates his debut and his reveal as gay. So why is it that his situation was/is acceptable but potential others are not?

Sometimes, it just feels like people are ok with LGBT characters if they're ones that aren't as important or major. Not saying that's the case, just that it feels like it.

[Michael Watkins]

This may be a question for another thread but why isn't there a push for Living Lighting among the LGTB friendly people on this forum?

because Striker is a more relevant gay person with electrical powers?

[Michael Watkins]

You're usually right about everything, but I wanna say you're wrong on this one. Johnny and Daken are true friends. If Daken is a true sociopath, he would've banged Johnny already without remorse because that how he would be. He may have initially tried the pheromone powers as he did with Thing and Spider-man, but there was a true "bromance" that happened. I wanna say his pheromones only happen in the vicinity, but its hard to say as Spidey and Thing were able to get out of them.

I actually like this friendship and think that Johnny somehow has helped Daken become a more likeable character.

I'm good with it. Daken's one of my favorite characters. I just totally think that the story with him "befriending" the Fantastic Four doesn't make any kind of sense; unless he was using his pheromones.

[Crimz]

On the topic of Living Lightning, I just looked him up again. He debuted in 1990. And he wasn't revealed as gay until 2005, in Great Lakes Avengers. Writer Dan Slott said about the decision : "He's gay. Get over it. Previous girlfriends? Beards. Or relationships that just didn't work—because Miguel hadn't come to terms yet with who he really is. Miguel is a gay superhero and a wonderful role model." So this character was previously seen dating women, which Slott said was just a part of him still coming to terms with it. And it doesn't seem like he was created to be a gay character in the first place. A 15 year difference separates his debut and his reveal as gay. So why is it that his situation was/is acceptable but potential others are not?

Sometimes, it just feels like people are ok with LGBT characters if they're ones that aren't as important or major. Not saying that's the case, just that it feels like it.

What's with the aversion to bisexuality at Marvel? It wouldn't make the previous relationships "beards" or failed because there was no real attraction and would still be representation.

[DragonsChi]

On the topic of Living Lightning, I just looked him up again. He debuted in 1990. And he wasn't revealed as gay until 2005, in Great Lakes Avengers. Writer Dan Slott said about the decision : "He's gay. Get over it. Previous girlfriends? Beards. Or relationships that just didn't work—because Miguel hadn't come to terms yet with who he really is. Miguel is a gay superhero and a wonderful role model." So this character was previously seen dating women, which Slott said was just a part of him still coming to terms with it. And it doesn't seem like he was created to be a gay character in the first place. A 15 year difference separates his debut and his reveal as gay. So why is it that his situation was/is acceptable but potential others are not?

Sometimes, it just feels like people are ok with LGBT characters if they're ones that aren't as important or major. Not saying that's the case, just that it feels like it.

This post is not entirely directed to you Max but.....

The question and statement could be turned around to say why must only well known/popular character with long historys be the only ones to have their sexual orientations change. While also the only ones to recieve the support for the change.

It goes both ways really. Living Lighting a relatively new character with one of Marvels better writters, in a prominent book, interesting powers, good looks and decent back story did not and is not receiving any support from the community. And he has way more unquie stories and situations to mine than a character with 50 plus years of history who is less flexible due to branding issues.

I don't know...I just want to present a viable option for the thread and the forum in general but instead it sorta feels like its met with recourse. Which also now seems rather hypocritical due to a speech of wanting a sense of identification and relatablity to characters. Can one only relate to characters who have been around along time? This is rhetorical question of cource, just a little confused by what seems to be the nature of the forum in genral. Would it not be more of a victory for a community to have a hand in bringing a character to stardom then having it handed it to them in a way that pushes other fans away?

Just some thoughts I'm having about what you brought up Max, again it is not intended to single you out.

[maxhilary]

This post is not entirely directed to you Max but.....

The question and statement could be turned around to say why must only well known/popular character with long historys be the only ones to have their sexual orientations change. While also the only ones to recieve the support for the change.

It goes both ways really. Living Lighting a relatively new character with one of Marvels better writters, in a prominent book, interesting powers, good looks and decent back story did not and is not receiving any support from the community. And he has way more unquie stories and situations to mine than a character with 50 plus years of history who is less flexible due to branding issues.

I don't know...I just want to present a viable option for the thread and the forum in general but instead it sorta feels like its met with recourse. Which also now seems rather hypocritical due to a speech of wanting a sense of identification and relatablity to characters. Can one only relate to characters who have been around along time? This is rhetorical question of cource, just a little confused by what seems to be the nature of the forum in genral. Would it not be more of a victory for a community to have a hand in bringing a character to stardom then having it handed it to them in a way that push other fans away?

Just some thoughts I'm having about what you brought up Max, again it is not intended to single you out.

It's alright, I don't feel singled out at all, you're just responding to my points. It's clear we both intend to be civil so I won't take anything personally.

As far as why only popular characters tend to be brought up in these discussions, I can only speak for myself. For me, it's a greater guarantee that said character won't be shipped off to limbo after the change happens. Back when the Iceman reveal happened, there was a lot of criticism, but no matter how bad it got, I knew one thing: Iceman wasn't going anywhere. If the goal is LGBT representation then it's obvious that people don't just want LGBT characters, they want them to be important characters and be actively involved too. Important enough to at least be part of some books.

Northstar was one of the first LGBT comic characters, and a prominent part of Alpha Flight. And where is he now? We got a nice period of time in Uncanny, Astonishing, and Amazing X-men when he was in the line-up, but he's disappeared since then. Similarly, you have Rictor and Shatterstar. We've hardly seen them since X-factor ended. I think it's fair to say neither is as popular or well known as Johnny Storm. In DC, they introduced a new character Bunker, who was gay from the start. And we haven't seen him for a while either. Karma is one of the few Marvel lesbian characters, and she isn't even going to be in the New Mutants movie coming up. And then we have the example of Living Lightning himself. Where is he? What I'm saying is that while inconsistent appearances is fact of life for comics, the more popular characters do tend to be around. Mostly.

With Iceman, there was no way that he was going to disappear into oblivion. The appeal of discussing more well known and exposed characters, for me and probably some others, is that it's ensured that their stories will continue to be told and they'll grow as characters. The problem with that of course is all the history they have, as you pointed out. But anyway, for me at least, I don't just want LGBT characters to exist, I want them to be involved in all the same kinds of things that we see our favorite characters in: high stakes, relationships, breakups, loss, power growth, cool teamups, compelling villains etc. You can have all of these without being a super popular character e.g Midnighter, but then what happens when your limited run ends? Back to comic limbo.

I hope that made some sense, I tend to get carried away...

[AcesX1X]

I'm good with it. Daken's one of my favorite characters. I just totally think that the story with him "befriending" the Fantastic Four doesn't make any kind of sense; unless he was using his pheromones.

no more or less sense than jessica jones showing up to trap luke cage in a hasty marriage.

[Tmacaoni]

Thanks to Crimz and Rogue Star, I kinda have better courage to ask a question that's really bothering me for a bit. That question being:

Do you like that Iceman is Gay?

The answer for me is a resounding No. Iceman is one of my 3 favorite Marvel heroes. I was so excited that he finally got a book and I would read it and yada yada yada. Then he came out as gay through 2 alternate reality characters and I felt it was done just for shock value and it was forced to be honest. I can't even support the book of one of my favorite characters (with the hottest outfit iced up in his entire history) because I feel they pulled a cheap trick. I honestly think that Iceman could have been a great Bisexual character and I would've been so happy for that, but Bisexual people get no respect and are just lumped as Gay so...whatevs I guess. To think that Bobby's flirtation with women were bullshyt and Lorna meant nothing, Darkstar meant nothing and Cloud meant nothing (which is the relationship where I thought he was at least Bi) is crazy...especially when panel evidence showed that he was in fact in love with these women(men). I've wanted to talk about it, but from these boards if you don't like someone being gay...you're a homophobe and you can't have an adult conversation about it since you're labeled for life and everyone jumps on the bandwagon.

Screw it though. Iceman should've been Bisexual and a breakout Bisexual star at that. Bisexuals get no respect in all types of media so I do get it. I will support I support his title when he actually comes to that relevation and not something his younger alternative self forced him to be. Daken can't be the only Bisexual in the Marvel world, but I guess he is now that Hercules isn't that way anymore.

[Agatha's Ghost]

Jonathan is a loose boy, and Daken is practically irresistible. A tryst tells us nothing about Jonathan sexual orientation. They were merely acts.

[maxhilary]

Daken can't be the only Bisexual in the Marvel world, but I guess he is now that Hercules isn't that way anymore.

He isn't. Shatterstar, Mystique, Prodigy, Julie Power, Moondragon, and Loki (maybe?) are some others.

Edit: Also, to answer your question, yes I like that Iceman is gay.

[stingray]

On the topic of Living Lightning, I just looked him up again. He debuted in 1990. And he wasn't revealed as gay until 2005, in Great Lakes Avengers. Writer Dan Slott said about the decision : "He's gay. Get over it. Previous girlfriends? Beards. Or relationships that just didn't work—because Miguel hadn't come to terms yet with who he really is. Miguel is a gay superhero and a wonderful role model." So this character was previously seen dating women, which Slott said was just a part of him still coming to terms with it. And it doesn't seem like he was created to be a gay character in the first place. A 15 year difference separates his debut and his reveal as gay. So why is it that his situation was/is acceptable but potential others are not?

Sometimes, it just feels like people are ok with LGBT characters if they're ones that aren't as important or major. Not saying that's the case, just that it feels like it.

Living Lightning appeared what, about 15 times between his debut and him being gay? The Torch appeared in 1961 and has appeared in hundreds upon hundreds of comics, major marvel events, and is one of the founding members of the longest existing team in Marvel comics history. There has been no indication of him being gay or bisexual in all that time. To answer your question, the important major characters you mention have a much longer history, and making big changes to them for no reason always seems forced and unnecessary. If you want more character development, expand on his already established character. Hickman did a great job of this when Johhny wrested the Cosmic Control Rod from Annihilus and took control of the annihilation wave. He grew from a hot headed teenager into a leader, and it seemed like a natural progression rather than change for change's sake.

[Tmacaoni]

He isn't. Shatterstar, Mystique, Prodigy, Julie Power and Loki (maybe?) are some others.

Good ones. Can't believe I forgot Shatt and Mystique. That's what happens when you're in the moment lol. The guy from Avengers that was Fathered by that half moon faced Plant guy was also bisexual.

[Crimz]

Thanks to Crimz and Rogue Star, I kinda have better courage to ask a question that's really bothering me for a bit. That question being:

Do you like that Iceman is Gay? .

The fact that he was revealed to be gay instead if bi doesn't bother me that much, but I can see the reason why fans would have a problem with it. However, I truly believe that the outing of Iceman as gay would have been received better by a lot more fans if it wasn't botched on delivery. It literally came out of nowhere and it wasn't the character admitting it to themselves, they were told how they felt by an outside party. Ignoring the subtext of previous runs, the biggest problem was that Bendis gave no indication in his own damn run. That would have also helped ease fans into the change that was gonna happen, the whole coming out situation was a great example of crappy writing. I could write an entire paragraph on how crappy the Jean aspect was, but it's been done to death. There would of course still be upset fans, but there would be less of them and it wouldn't be so negative.

If a writer ever wanted to make Johnny bi, I would point to Bendis as the wrong way to do it. I still don't think that it would be a bad idea if a writer wanted to make Johnny bi, as long as they can do it properly but that should go without saying. Also, making him bi wouldn't negatively effect any of his previous relationships in any way.

[Michael Watkins]

no more or less sense than jessica jones showing up to trap luke cage in a hasty marriage.

i would describe myself as a Luke/Jessica relationship detractor. i don't think divorce would even make things better at this point. Luke needs an exorcism.

[maxhilary]

Living Lightning appeared what, about 15 times between his debut and him being gay? The Torch appeared in 1961 and has appeared in hundreds upon hundreds of comics, major marvel events, and is one of the founding members of the longest existing team in Marvel comics history. There has been no indication of him being gay or bisexual in all that time. To answer your question, the important major characters you mention have a much longer history, and making big changes to them for no reason always seems forced and unnecessary. If you want more character development, expand on his already established character. Hickman did a great job of this when Johhny wrested the Cosmic Control Rod from Annihilus and took control of the annihilation wave. He grew from a hot headed teenager into a leader, and it seemed like a natural progression rather than change for change's sake.

So your point is that because Johnny has decades more history, that it makes less sense than a character who only made a few appearances. I get what you're saying. But most of the time in this debate, the main principle people bring up as to why established characters can't be gay is that they had relationships and attraction to the opposite sex. In this example, let's assume Living Lightning had maybe 2-3 on-panel instances, while Johnny probably has hundreds. So at what number is it that it becomes acceptable? Less than 20? 10? The fact of the matter is, this character Living Lightning was shown dating women but because it was only a few times, owing to his lesser appearances, it's deemed more acceptable. But it's still the same thing, he wasn't shown with men before that. He was a character for 15 years. And people are ok with him being gay. That's why I say that it feels to me like if it's a minor character, people don't have an issue with it. But if you have an issue with one example of a character being with the opposite sex in the past, it should apply the same way, when that's the main argument people tend to make.

I would also like to make clear that I don't actually care about Johnny being bi or not, I'm just using his example in place of any character in his position because that's what the thread is about.