Make The Joker gay again

[Sacred Knight]

The Joker should be asexual.

Already has been said here but its worth saying again.

[MajorHoy]

I know DC will never kill the Joker, but . . .
isn't it time to kill this thread?

(And considering that this thread was begun by some person who only made that single post, one has to question why it exists in the first place.)

[Totoro Man]

this thread seems a little bit off. the fact that there is a web-linked "petition" at the bottom of the original post doesn't help either.

then there is the fact that the first and ONLY post this user has made in three weeks is this one. they visited once two days later... but otherwise, nothing. I do hope nobody clicked on that link to sign the petition.

[Soubhagya]

See Joker was not gay as you say. It was in some famous stories mentioned in the beginning of this thread and others that writers hinted that he might be one.

But in reality he is not. It appears like this because of his obsession over Batman. In every story of Joker, he is fairly one dimensional. His one and only goal in life is to defeat Batman. Everything else is subservient to this one burning desire: to defeat Batman.

Whether he tries to kill Batman as in many stories or beat him in surfing competitions as in 1966 show it all boils down to this: 'He wants to defeat Batman.'

Some writers have said that this is because Batman stands for order while Joker for chaos. Joker is Batman's natural enemy because he wants to destroy the illusion of civility and order which masks the barbaric and chaotic world which is the reality according to Joker.

He does not work as a villain for others so well because his whole character, motivation, action, resources all are centered around beating Batman. The likes of Harley, his goons, even teaming up with Luthor is meant to achieve this: defeat Batman.

When a man is always thinking about his wife it us said that he is in love with his wife. Everything he does earns at office, does shopping, cooking all are meant to see his wife happy. Pardon my sexist example: if the wife is a homemaker and is cheating her husband she is always thinking about her lover. Even while doing everything at home she is always thinking of her lover. She is even more careful that her husband will not suspect her. This is the idea of love: the desire to see your lover happy or to see your lover.

Joker is simillarly thinking about ways to defeat Batman. Harley is just a pawn in his all burning desire to vanquish Batman. Everything in the world is meant to defeat Batman.

Thus from a point of view you can call this obsession similar to love as we know it due to sharing some characteristics. But this is no love. This is not romantic but pseudo-romantic. Something which appears to be love but is not.

Some writers play around this and give hints that Joker maybe in love with Batman for various reasons. If some writer tries something serious in future it would be a fundamental misreading of the character of Joker. Joker is incapable of love.

On the part of Batman he has only one love in his life: Justice. (This may change after Tom King. We will have to wait and see.) Yet again he is not so devilishly obsessed with Justice.He has a son with Talia and many romantic affairs, Catwoman being a famous example. He is obsessed with justice but he does not see others as tools. His extended family of Robins, Alfred and friends like Gordon and Justice League are indeed in part due to his life in pursuit of justice. But a major difference from Joker is he cares for them. He loves his friends and family. Even if he rarely admits that.

[oasis1313]

This whole thing started with Frank Miller's "Dark Knight Returns", as I recall (and at my age, my memory isn't the best), and at the time I felt it was for shock value.

[Jokerz79]

The Joker should be asexual.

Already has been said here but its worth saying again.

2nd a thousands times. I like Harley Quinn and Joker only because she's so in love with him and I see that as the ultimate joke to him because he's asexual.

[NaughtyJuri]

It's kinda hard to believe he is when him & Harley have a kid, I don't want other bi character etc cause lately on marvel side it's been happening alot Plus I don't think DC will do it to a Iconic character plus all the backlash from fans

[NaughtyJuri]

I agree with everything you said

[fairyquinn]

I feel like this is just a bunch of people trying to push their "fanfiction headcannons" on to everyone else.
Leave the Joker as he is...ambiguous.

[Doctor Bifrost]

It seems like all the reasons people give to make the Joker gay is to accentuate and explain his the negative traits. They say things (in this very thread, among other places) like: he's obsessed with Batman, which is why he pursues all his horrific plans. (And it's because he's gay!) Or: Batman is the ultimate human male figure, perfectly masculine in every way, so the Joker should be the twisted, repulsive opposite of that. (So he must be gay!) Or: like many comic male figures over the decades (millennia, really; cf. Milton Berle and Bugs Bunny), he sometimes dresses in drag or uses feminine mannerisms for humor, in his case tied usually to shocking or manipulating people. (So he must be gay!)

And this is one of the reasons I think it is a terrible idea. Not because no villains can be gay. But their gayness shouldn't be used as a cause or example of their villainy - there's nothing villainous about being gay.

There is a long, long tradition in movies and popular culture (especially around the years that the Joker was invented) of using homosexuality as a shorthand for evil, cowardice, weakness, or madness. (Cf. The Celluloid Closet.) I think we've seen enough of it, for long enough, that we don't need to make the Joker, of all the archetypes of pure evil, gay.

When the Pied Piper came out to Wally West (1991), it started with Wally asking him if it was true that the Joker was really gay. The Piper said: no, the Joker is incapable of loving anyone. Now, I don't know if I would go so far as to say that, in The So-Called Real World™, a sociopath can never be considered gay because he can't really love someone. But the Joker is an almost uniquely extreme case, and I think his all-consuming obsessions, his wildly aberrant psyche, and his lack of actual romantic or sexual relationships portrayed in the comics (except, in some cases, with women, but I think of that as something of a default depiction without much thought to the actual character) put him beyond categories such as gay, straight, bi, or otherwise.

To the extent that villains are ever shown having romantic entanglements, I have no objection to some of them being gay. I just don't want their gayness to be an emblem of their villainy. It's also worth remembering some context: for many years, almost all characters represented as somehow "gay" in popular culture were, in some way, bad people. (The first seemingly gay characters I can remember seeing in mainstream comics were two lisping, campy thugs who were apparently going to sexually assault Bruce Banner in a YMCA shower room. For young gay kids who had never seen gay people in their favorite movies, TV shows, or comics, it was a pretty ugly start.) And, sadly, there are many, many people in this country who still think of gay people as "bad, evil abominations," and entire organizations that push that view. I think it behooves people to be a little cautious about the manner in which they wittingly or unwittingly empower those views. That doesn't mean "no gay villains," but I think a gay Joker would be a bridge too far.

The Piper's coming-out scene remains my favorite in mainstream comics. Partially because it includes a touch of the humor that many gays use to cope with a world that, unfortunately, can still be quite anti-gay in many circumstances.

(cf. http://paiwings.blogspot.com/2010/09...ied-piper.html.)

[Nite-Wing]

People really seem to think Joker is either gay,heterosexual, or asexual
Kinda like his origin its multiple choice(although in this case not really since Joker is a heterosexual male)

[Celgress]

I'd rather he be ambiguous than clear cut gay, but that's just me.

[theonetruebatman]

The Joker is a comic book character with almost 80 years history, half of which he was portrayed as homosexual - for instance, in such significant graphic novels as Frank Miller’s The Dark Knight Returns or Grant Morrison’s Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth. Neal Adams claimed that The Joker was and always had been homosexual. This opinion was shared by other comic books authors and artists for decades. That is why it’s so important to me and other queer readers to return his homosexuality.

The Joker repeatedly confessed his feelings to Batman and showed an interest in other men. Also there was Joker’s unnamed boyfriend in the graphic novel Devil’s Advocate. The Joker has many feminine traits - he uses lipstick, paints his nails, wears high heels and sometimes does crossdressing. We realize that some of these things is stereotypical, but it gives a very clear picture. Over the years, there were plenty of other queer moments in comics, cartoons and video games (especially in Batman: Arkham series).

However, in the late nineties someone decided to erase Joker’s homosexuality and introduced Harley Quinn as his girlfriend (by the way, Harley was made up for the Batman: The Animated Series to replace the Joker in one scene, in which he was supposed to jump from the cake in drag). In the mass consciousness Harley became his only love interest, although in canonical comics there is no evidence that there are romantic or sexual feelings from the Joker’s part. His enforced relationship with Harley Quinn looks like an attempt to retconned his homosexuality and turn him in acceptable straight man.

DC Comics already has a great cast of queer characters - heroes (Batwoman or Midnighter), as well as villains (Harley Quinn or Poison Ivy). Maybe some people don’t want to see the “terrible villain” as part of the LGBT community. But on the other hand, in Gotham series The Penguin became gay without any problem, and he is morally no better than the Joker. It’s not homophobic to have a queer villain. So why not let the Clown Prince of Crime "out of the closet"? DC Rebirth is an excellent reason to bring the Joker back to his roots.

We ask DC Comics to restore The Joker’s homosexuality in comics and other media. No one’s sexual identity should be changed, even it’s only a fictional character. Because sometimes fictional characters is something real people hold onto.

---

Please, SIGN THE PETITION.

While I wouldn't mind if they did this, here are the facts of the matter. You can't really say the Joker has been gay before if it hasn't been in the main continuity. None of the books you put above are in actual canon. It is arguable which are. If you say that A Serious House On Serious Earth is due to Morrison's run I am afraid you are sadly mistaken. Also, it's said he is "in love with Batman" but to say it's a homosexual love is a stretch. It's an obsession yes. Subtext however is largely useless in these matters. Case in point, many people thought Batman killed Mr. J in TKJ. The writer said that was nonsense. When it comes to Neal Adams as a writer you really need to provide specifics in order for me to buy anything but his opinion on the matter. Neal Adams isn't writing the character anymore whether you like it or not. And the gay thing with Batman and Robin was stupid then and stupid now.

Now, can the Joker be bi or bi curious? With that I really don't care. If someone were to write it then whatever. But what IS in continuity is The Killing Joke where the Joker had a wife, a child, and then went mad. While that may only be one of a multiple choice it is actually the established origin going back to the Golden Age. I assure you in the Golden Age there is NO, I repeat, NO possibility of the man being homosexual. You say no one should change a character. Well if they were to do this it would fly in the face of hypocrisy. Again, I really don't care about whether the man is gay, straight, or a space alien that runs a store called HOMOS R US. I feel you are misled.

You have other characters that are great and gay right now. I am baffled to why they haven't used Montoya more. I am also baffled to why they haven't played up the matter in Batwoman. However, when it is played up there is a section of fandom that strikes out due to it. So they can't really win. See Marvels recent try at Diversity. And they surely wouldn't win if they were to do it to the most beloved villain in comics history. That's just my two cents based upon the facts and not opinion or bias.

[adrikito]

The Joker should be asexual.

Already has been said here but its worth saying again.

and mysterious ... No origin, no real name..

The Joker is PERFECT, he doesn´t need changes..

[JBatmanFan05]

I'm not one of the biggest Chris Nolan fans, but one thing he really did was show the "mainstream" just how cool the mysterious ambiguous Joker is over in comic book land. I think he has done a ton to solidify the mystery and prevent Joker from becoming Wolverine where his mysterious origin was sadly chipped away at.