Richard Grayson's Soulmate

[Slimybug]

Okay, it seems this thread has gotten a bit off track, talking about whether or not Nightwing is Batman-lite, or if he should be, or how he's being written, or how he may be written, or whatever, so, let me get to the meat of this.

I'm something of a casual fan of a lot of this stuff, having only scratched the superficial surface of actually reading these issues, and my knowledge of the history is based on research. So I can't really say I know these characters super well, or have any knowledge of a lot of depth to them, why a character is "good for" another or not.

I can tell you that, superficially, for a lot of fans my age, it's the idea of the "classic Robin and Batgirl" thing that makes them seem like a Superman-Lois-Lane, destined thing. And so for that reason, I'm on team Barbara. But it's also the reason I've heard at least one Dick/Kori shipper get angry. He seemed to say that Dick/Babs is only pushed because of that sort of superficial ideal, based on what the kiddies see when they look at a comic cover. Obviously, I've heard people on this thread make a lot deeper arguments for it.


But let me see if I have this timeline right.

In spite of the common perception of the classic Batgirl and Robin having a romantic attachment, there was only, apparently, some teasing of it in the "Batman Family" book.
Dick's first real serious love story came in the Titans book in the 80s, when he and Kori were a big-deal couple. They ultimately got engaged, but broke it off at some point.

And that's kind of it for Dick and Kori. Near as I can tell, they haven't really pushed any strong tension for them in the ensung years, and that comic book page shown on page 5 of this thread seems to put the nail in the coffin.

Then, in the late 90s/2000s or so, they started to legitimately push the idea of him and Babs together. What's the issue that comic book panel is from, with Babs meeting Kori in her underwear? That seems to be a retcon of sorts, right? At any rate, they became a couple, and then THEY got engaged. But then, in "One Year Later," it was revealed they broke it off as well.

I guess it's that timeline that makes me a Babs shipper. The Kori thing seems to have been said and done 30+ years ago, while the Barbara thing is still fresh, at least for guys like me, and could still seem like a viable option for him to return to. Plus, again, that comic page from page 5 says a lot (what's that from?) , as does the post where someone said that even Donna was expressing concerns back in the day that they weren't truly right for each other.

Then again, apparently it's a totally different dynamic in the New 52, and I'll admit I know nothing about the New 52, so there you go.

[Moonwix]

Okay, it seems this thread has gotten a bit off track, talking about whether or not Nightwing is Batman-lite, or if he should be, or how he's being written, or how he may be written, or whatever, so, let me get to the meat of this.

I'm something of a casual fan of a lot of this stuff, having only scratched the superficial surface of actually reading these issues, and my knowledge of the history is based on research. So I can't really say I know these characters super well, or have any knowledge of a lot of depth to them, why a character is "good for" another or not.

I can tell you that, superficially, for a lot of fans my age, it's the idea of the "classic Robin and Batgirl" thing that makes them seem like a Superman-Lois-Lane, destined thing. And so for that reason, I'm on team Barbara. But it's also the reason I've heard at least one Dick/Kori shipper get angry. He seemed to say that Dick/Babs is only pushed because of that sort of superficial ideal, based on what the kiddies see when they look at a comic cover. Obviously, I've heard people on this thread make a lot deeper arguments for it.


But let me see if I have this timeline right.

In spite of the common perception of the classic Batgirl and Robin having a romantic attachment, there was only, apparently, some teasing of it in the "Batman Family" book.
Dick's first real serious love story came in the Titans book in the 80s, when he and Kori were a big-deal couple. They ultimately got engaged, but broke it off at some point.

And that's kind of it for Dick and Kori. Near as I can tell, they haven't really pushed any strong tension for them in the ensung years, and that comic book page shown on page 5 of this thread seems to put the nail in the coffin.

Then, in the late 90s/2000s or so, they started to legitimately push the idea of him and Babs together. What's the issue that comic book panel is from, with Babs meeting Kori in her underwear? That seems to be a retcon of sorts, right? At any rate, they became a couple, and then THEY got engaged. But then, in "One Year Later," it was revealed they broke it off as well.

I guess it's that timeline that makes me a Babs shipper. The Kori thing seems to have been said and done 30+ years ago, while the Barbara thing is still fresh, at least for guys like me, and could still seem like a viable option for him to return to. Plus, again, that comic page from page 5 says a lot (what's that from?) , as does the post where someone said that even Donna was expressing concerns back in the day that they weren't truly right for each other.

Then again, apparently it's a totally different dynamic in the New 52, and I'll admit I know nothing about the New 52, so there you go.

All of this happened in the world of comics but still according to DC dick/kory is clearly not over. The rise of the popularity has nothing to do with the comics. As for dick/babs what DC presents in comics and media is very inconsistent . I think is mainly because Barbara as batgirl is a very inconsistent character. And the relationship mainly happened when she was oracle. In the last few years while DC as been promoting dick/kory, they have also push bruce/babs or tim/babs.... see what I mean so inconsistent.
Those scans mean jack if dc doesn't really follow up with it and because dick and babs only happens within the bat office, it can sometimes come of as very convenient but i will always say both are equally Dick's main love interest.

[Barbatos666]

Does he have to be a street level character and only in street level situations? The problem is the fanbase wants him to be treated more as an A-list character, and him being an extension of Batman is commonly perceived as a roadblock to that. The thing that makes Dick A-list already is his status as the original Robin, and that obvious connection to Batman, not Nightwing. It seems the character is in kind of a trap. The two most obvious solutions, having him be Batman and/or the Titans taking the League's spot are not realistic.

Well unless you plan on giving him heat vision and having him fly through space Dick will remain street level.

[jbmasta]

I love him and Barbara together, so I voted for her too, but I'd love to see him date some other heroes. The preview for Green Lanterns #40 had Jessica state that "Nightwing's always making the other lady superheroes sweat" and, while it is a joke, I think it would be fun to see.

It sounds silly, but a superhero speed dating session would be brilliant to see. "I'm Nightwing. I've been spending my time in the Blud. Why are you rolling your eyes? It's a thing."

[Rac7d*]

All of this happened in the world of comics but still according to DC dick/kory is clearly not over. The rise of the popularity has nothing to do with the comics. As for dick/babs what DC presents in comics and media is very inconsistent . I think is mainly because Barbara as batgirl is a very inconsistent character. And the relationship mainly happened when she was oracle. In the last few years while DC as been promoting dick/kory, they have also push bruce/babs or tim/babs.... see what I mean so inconsistent.
Those scans mean jack if dc doesn't really follow up with it and because dick and babs only happens within the bat office, it can sometimes come of as very convenient but i will always say both are equally Dick's main love interest.

What makes you say that. Starfire and Dick had something in the past, pre new52. they remember it fondly and still are friends, but have all since moved on. Notice how rebirth sis not reignite anything between them. Its been 8 years. Dickbabs may only happen in the bat office but that better then it never happening. Its first revist, ends with Starfire loosing feelings for him. Yet the Batman Annual 40 years later ther they are. Thats the thing about endgame, it comes at the end, and thease new comics are not big on mooving time, chracters can no longer grow up the way Dick did so really any romance cant pregress to much, which is why so many eye are on the BatCat wedding and where it will go.
No matter how many others they see between they always seem to head back to each other

[Moonwix]

What makes you say that. Starfire and Dick had something in the past, pre new52. they remember it fondly and still are friends, but have all since moved on. Notice how rebirth sis not reignite anything between them. Its been 8 years. Dickbabs may only happen in the bat office but that better then it never happening. Its first revist, ends with Starfire loosing feelings for him. Yet the Batman Annual 40 years later ther they are. Thats the thing about endgame, it comes at the end, and thease new comics are not big on mooving time, chracters can no longer grow up the way Dick did so really any romance cant pregress to much, which is why so many eye are on the BatCat wedding and where it will go.
No matter how many others they see between they always seem to head back to each other

It's fine to believe them as the endgame, its what the bat office as hammered for years but the problem is that it's not consistent with DC/WB as a whole. That was The main point of my earlier post , lack of consistency. The reason is because Dick is part of two franchises batman and the titans, in each one he has a main love interest.. In the comic world batman dominates in sales , so yeah dick/babs would be popular there.

[Slimybug]

It's fine to believe them as the endgame, its what the bat office as hammered for years but the problem is that it's not consistent with DC/WB as a whole. That was The main point of my earlier post , lack of consistency. The reason is because Dick is part of two franchises batman and the titans, in each one he has a main love interest.. In the comic world batman dominates in sales , so yeah dick/babs would be popular there.

Isn't it better to just admit that it's a Betty and Veronica situation, and perhaps he will never definitely choose between them in the "main" continuity.

Not that there is a main continuity. And what would choosing with any degree of permanene mean?

I'm not gonna lie, I haven't paid attention to New 52, because I didn't like the idea of just starting over, and so yeah, Babs id ifferent and such, but I'm always concerned with New Earth, in case they ever go back there.

But what would going back to New Earth and "choosing" one with any degree of permannece mean? Prpposing and finally getting married? Having lots of kids? Eve if he got married to one of htem, the comics remain pretty ageless. They don't see the characters getting old. I've always thought it would be cool to have the characters actually age, grow old, and effectively end the main continuity (not an elseworlds tale like Kingdom Come, but the actual "main" continuity.

(I don't mean to change the subject, but let me get this out of the way before anyone else brings it up. Yes, Earth-One/Post-Crisis/New Earth went through at least three big changes in it's continuity before New 52, but it was still at least trying to maintain a streamlined story, just one with revisions to perfect it. So I still view all three as "the" main continuity. Again, I know nothing about New 52 or Rebirth)

So, once again, even if we went back to New Earth and saw Dick propose and marry one of them, we would still have potentially a hundred or more years of stories before they even really started to age, and in that time anything could happen! Superman married Lois Lane, but we never saw them grow old together! Who's to say what happened after we left New Earth? She could have died six days later, and he married Wonder Woman! (like in Kingdom Come)

Again, my point is that it's a Betty and Veronica situation. From what I've heard, Babs is now a selfie-taking teenager in the New 52, so it doesn't look like it's gonna happen there, at least not any time soon.

In any Teen Titans adaptation, like the upcoming show, it's gonna be Kori. In any Batman adaptation, it's probably gonna be Babs.

[SiegePerilous02]

Well unless you plan on giving him heat vision and having him fly through space Dick will remain street level.

He fought demons and traveled into space when he was with the Titans, and that didn't require flight or heat vision. Rescuing Starfire from Blackfire and the Citadel and teaming up with the Omega Men is not a street level affair. Just because he's non-powered doesn't automatically make him street level, especially when his adventures are not on the streets.

There is so much inconsistency with both powergirl and supergirl , that i don't think to will ever happen with Nightwing. Supergirl age changes all the time when the titans began in the 60s she was an adult,that's why she was never part of the team. Then somehow she was a teenager during Tim's titans and now i don't know if she is still a teen or Barbara's age.
As for power girl, she sometimes in and out of limbo. Right now I don't know what her status is at the moment.

Supergirl is also 16 or so now, so that's right out.

Karen could work I guess, though I've always preferred her being on Earth-2 because I hate clutter Earth with a passion. But if that were the case, maybe they could interact in Multiverse stories?

[Slimybug]

Okay, in spite of everything I just said, let me make one more case for Dick/Babs, at least on New Earth.

. In the last few years while DC as been promoting dick/kory, they have also push bruce/babs or tim/babs.... see what I mean so inconsistent.
Those scans mean jack if dc doesn't really follow up with it and because dick and babs only happens within the bat office, it can sometimes come of as very convenient but i will always say both are equally Dick's main love interest.

I agree the scan doesn't mean jack if the writers decide the next day that Dick DOES love Kory, but ot me, that's just bad writing. What's needed is consistency. Again, I don't know these characters as well as you guys do, but as a jury member, with that as Exhibit A, I have to vote guilty as to it being over. The writer made that a piece of official continuity where Dick, having known Kori for years, known her better than anyone, been in a long relationship with her, almost married her, can definitively state "No," he doesn't love her and it won't work out. At the same time, the scan on this page shows Barbara as the "one."

Now, if you say that there is a lack of consistency as to how he feels about Babs, there may have been inconsistency in the past, but to MAKE it consistent, you should really just go with what you've been going with most recently. If someone (like DC writers) changes their mind a lot, you encouraged them to just keep on the track their on currently.

That's what I've been saying. I haven't seen any evidence in this thread that Kory and Dick have been really flirting with getting back together at all since their breakup 30 years ago. Fans wanting it, yes, romancing each other in media adaptations, yes, but nothing in the comics.

Perhaps it would help to establish a timeline, state where in that timeline each of these scans came from. For instance, that scan of Kori in her underwear, I have now learned through research, comes from Nightwing Annual #2, but I'm not sure the exact place in the timeline it's flashing back to.

[Moonwix]

Okay, in spite of everything I just said, let me make one more case for Dick/Babs, at least on New Earth.



I agree the scan doesn't mean jack if the writers decide the next day that Dick DOES love Kory, but ot me, that's just bad writing. What's needed is consistency. Again, I don't know these characters as well as you guys do, but as a jury member, with that as Exhibit A, I have to vote guilty as to it being over. The writer made that a piece of official continuity where Dick, having known Kori for years, known her better than anyone, been in a long relationship with her, almost married her, can definitively state "No," he doesn't love her and it won't work out. At the same time, the scan on this page shows Barbara as the "one."

Now, if you say that there is a lack of consistency as to how he feels about Babs, there may have been inconsistency in the past, but to MAKE it consistent, you should really just go with what you've been going with most recently. If someone (like DC writers) changes their mind a lot, you encouraged them to just keep on the track their on currently.

That's what I've been saying. I haven't seen any evidence in this thread that Kory and Dick have been really flirting with getting back together at all since their breakup 30 years ago. Fans wanting it, yes, romancing each other in media adaptations, yes, but nothing in the comics.

Perhaps it would help to establish a timeline, state where in that timeline each of these scans came from. For instance, that scan of Kori in her underwear, I have now learned through research, comes from Nightwing Annual #2, but I'm not sure the exact place in the timeline it's flashing back to.

Actually all the scans you speak of, are from comic books that are no longer in continuity.

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

Also in that defunct Continuity Dick & Babs called off their engagement and never got back together up until Flashpoint and have not had a real relationship Post Flashpoint even with this recent Batgirl arc. When it comes to media Dick & Kori are together in most Titans shows with the lone exception of a “possible” future that collapsed. In Bat media they have not been together since the 90’s show that resulted in her being more affectionate towards Bruce (The Follow up comic had that nasty Pregnancy hoo hah where they were back together but she cheated on Dick with Bruce) Most recent Batgirl media appearances have been without any relationship with Dick but one bad/weird one with Bruce & a Strange one with Tim Drake

[Slimybug]

Actually all the scans you speak of, are from comic books that are no longer in continuity.

Right, they're from New Earth, not the New 52 world, which I noted.

Also in that defunct Continuity Dick & Babs called off their engagement and never got back together up until Flashpoint and have not had a real relationship Post Flashpoint even with this recent Batgirl arc.

So what I'm hearing is that they were together at the end of the New Earth continuity. I didn't know they got back together.

When it comes to media Dick & Kori are together in most Titans shows with the lone exception of a “possible” future that collapsed. In Bat media they have not been together since the 90’s show that resulted in her being more affectionate towards Bruce (The Follow up comic had that nasty Pregnancy hoo hah where they were back together but she cheated on Dick with Bruce) Most recent Batgirl media appearances have been without any relationship with Dick but one bad/weird one with Bruce & a Strange one with Tim Drake

Wow, that's messed up. I never knew they had mature stuff like that in the comics spun off from the DCAU. I'm not even finished watching the animated stuff in the DCAU. I should make a list of comics to then read.

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

No they did not have a relationship at the end of New Earth, After The engagement end that was it and they were friends

[Slimybug]

No they did not have a relationship at the end of New Earth, After The engagement end that was it and they were friends

Oh, okay, I read that wrong.

[Powertool]

Kory, without a doubt. Dick and Barbara together become the most soporific thing in the history of comic books. Hot, superpowered alien princesses ftw!