View Poll Results: Who is your favourite 616 Marvel LGBT character?

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  • ANOLE [Victor Borkowski]

    30 3.37%
  • BLING! [Roxanne ‘Roxy’ Washington]

    12 1.35%
  • CULLEN BLOODSTONE

    21 2.36%
  • DAKEN AKIHIRO

    47 5.29%
  • HULKLING [Theodore ‘Teddy’ Altman]

    49 5.51%
  • KARMA [Xi’an Coy Mahn]

    49 5.51%
  • KAROLINA DEAN

    47 5.29%
  • LOKI LAUFEYSON, God of Mischief

    77 8.66%
  • MOONDRAGON [Heather Douglas]

    46 5.17%
  • MYSTIQUE [Raven Darkholme]

    134 15.07%
  • NORTHSTAR [Jean-Paul Beaubier]

    69 7.76%
  • PRODIGY [David Alleyne]

    25 2.81%
  • RICTOR [Julio Esteban Ricter]

    47 5.29%
  • SHATTERSTAR [Gaveedra-7]

    51 5.74%
  • WICCAN [William ‘Billy’ Kaplan], the Demiurge

    185 20.81%
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  1. #11911
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    My headcanon about Billy and Tommy's powers is that it comes from the fact that their souls are actually parts of Mephisto lol. Technically they're like demonic children. I wish that would be explored. And their actual specific powers(magic/reality warping and super speed) comes from Wanda relating the fact she was having twins with herself and Pietro, kind of a subconscious thing.
    Yeah, that's my headcanon as well until proven otherwise. The fact that they are the reincarnation of two beings that were created purely from a demonic essence would absolutely explain why they have powers. The X-Gene explanation is ok, but I never got why some people associate that with Wanda, considering they are not her biological children. If they naturally inherited the X-Gene, it was from the Kaplans/Shepherds, not Wanda.

  2. #11912
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Remember that scene between Ayo and Okoye in the Black Panther movie that was described as ''flirty'' by the Vanity Fair reporter, and then Marvel had her edit her article to clarify the scene didn't have any romantic context? Now the screenwriter of the movie is claiming he doesn't even remember if the scene ever existed, LMAO.

    http://comicbook.com/2018/02/12/blac...e-gay-lesbian/

    I'm fully expecting the scene to not be in the final cut, specially with the screenwriter playing the forgetful card. It's probably their way to sweep it under the rug. So much for a movie that's being promoted and praised because of its ''diversity''.

    ~~~

    Shatterstar was confirmed in Deadpool 2, though:

    https://www.inverse.com/amp/article/...ar-terry-crews

  3. #11913
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    I'm not even sure what's the canon right now. Originally Wanda's kids stopped existing because their souls went back to being part of Mephisto. But then they were reincarnated... I don't think anyone thought that much about the whole situation.

    LOL. But Vision and Simon are considered brothers, so he would be their uncle. And thinking about that, both of them have some relation to their uncles. Speed is pretty much a Quicksilver Jr, and Billy was named after Wonder Man, and their color scheme is lowkey similar.
    Huh. I mean, some reality warping chaos was going on, so who knows what the status quo is right now. Definitely a strange scenario. Is some part of them still attached to Mephisto?

    Yeah, I've often imagined what the dinner table at Thanksgiving would look like. You've got Scarlet Witch and Vision, their children being Billy, Tommy and Viv. Visions 'brother' is Wonder Man. Wanda's brother is Pietro. Pietro's child is Luna Maximoff. Visions father is Ultron, who in turn has two wives (Jocasta and Alkhema, based upon the brain patterns of Wasp + Mockingbird). Ultron also has a son in Victor Mancha. Ultron's father is Hank Pym. Then you've got Magneto, who should at least be credited as a father figure for Wanda + Pietro. He has his own daughter, Lorna. The family tree just gets bigger and bigger, and ten times more complicated.

  4. #11914
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King_Thor13 View Post
    Huh. I mean, some reality warping chaos was going on, so who knows what the status quo is right now. Definitely a strange scenario. Is some part of them still attached to Mephisto?

    Yeah, I've often imagined what the dinner table at Thanksgiving would look like. You've got Scarlet Witch and Vision, their children being Billy, Tommy and Viv. Visions 'brother' is Wonder Man. Wanda's brother is Pietro. Pietro's child is Luna Maximoff. Visions father is Ultron, who in turn has two wives (Jocasta and Alkhema, based upon the brain patterns of Wasp + Mockingbird). Ultron also has a son in Victor Mancha. Ultron's father is Hank Pym. Then you've got Magneto, who should at least be credited as a father figure for Wanda + Pietro. He has his own daughter, Lorna. The family tree just gets bigger and bigger, and ten times more complicated.
    Add Nadya on there on the Hank/Ultron part. And she took Janet's surname, so she would probably be there too. Wanda and Pietro wouldn't want Magneto on there though, after they found out he wasn't their dad seems like they cut strings completely. He wasn't really a father figure as they were raised by the Maximoffs.

  5. #11915
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Add Nadya on there on the Hank/Ultron part. And she took Janet's surname, so she would probably be there too. Wanda and Pietro wouldn't want Magneto on there though after they found out he wasn't their dad seems like they cut strings completely. He wasn't really a father figure as they were raised by the Maximoffs.
    Oh right. Huh, so regarding Champions, Nadia and Viv are... cousins? I don't even claim to understand. And yeah Wasp is Jocasta's 'sister' which I mentioned too. I think it's tragic Wanda + Pietro seem to have abandoned him. Even if not their father, he still loved them in his own way, and they've been in each other's lives for years. Cutting ties is a little cold. Same goes for Lorna, who seemingly has lost contact with her 'siblings'. Damn I thought my family was complicated.

  6. #11916
    Astonishing Member MasterOfMagnetism's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    Remember that scene between Ayo and Okoye in the Black Panther movie that was described as ''flirty'' by the Vanity Fair reporter, and then Marvel had her edit her article to clarify the scene didn't have any romantic context? Now the screenwriter of the movie is claiming he doesn't even remember if the scene ever existed, LMAO.

    http://comicbook.com/2018/02/12/blac...e-gay-lesbian/

    I'm fully expecting the scene to not be in the final cut, specially with the screenwriter playing the forgetful card. It's probably their way to sweep it under the rug. So much for a movie that's being promoted and praised because of its ''diversity''.

    ~~~

    Shatterstar was confirmed in Deadpool 2, though:

    https://www.inverse.com/amp/article/...ar-terry-crews
    I was just coming here to mention the Black Panther scene getting cut. Disappointed but not at all surprised, it's going to be a loooooooooong time before we see openly gay characters in any of the see popular movies.

    I highly doubt Shatterstar's sexuality will be mentioned in Deadpool 2.

  7. #11917

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    I think Shatterstar has the best chance just due to the tone of the Deadpool films. It might not be anything serious, but I could see something like Wade giving Shatty a Bugs Bunny kiss, obvs played for laughs, then having Shatty either return it later or ask if they can do it again or some such.

  8. #11918
    Astonishing Member legion_quest's Avatar
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    The movie Shatterstar looks like a Liefeld style extreme dude bro version of 'Star, so I wouldnt bet on his sexuality being mentioned
    I will raise my throne above the Stars of God

  9. #11919
    Ultimate Member Fokken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by legion_quest View Post
    Woohoo!

    I agree, I'd love to see Billy and Teddy move on to do some more exploration of the Ewing set up with Teddy as space King Arthur. It might work out poorly for their relationship - as Billy would need to play the part of Guinevere eventually, if they kept up the analogy - but it's an easy change to the ending to have it be that the Lancelot characters is exploiting Billy and then he realises he's being used and he just wants Teddy and they come back together for a glorious moment - the drama, the angst, the spectacle, the cameos.....but alas, Iceman selling poorly means Marvel are unlikely to take a punt on a gay lead again for a while.

    Kate seems to be the biggest success story. Kelly Thompson wrote a brilliant series, and I hope she gets the chance to write some bigger things, and maybe bring Kate along.
    Its sad that a canceled series is our crew's biggest success story -- although said series IS exceptional and I'll miss it dearly.
    I'd still very much love to see a DUO book -- be it Billy and Teddy, gay COUPLE taking on their destinies OR Billy and Tommy, brothers reconnecting to understand their how/why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    My headcanon about Billy and Tommy's powers is that it comes from the fact that their souls are actually parts of Mephisto lol. Technically they're like demonic children. I wish that would be explored. And their actual specific powers(magic/reality warping and super speed) comes from Wanda relating the fact she was having twins with herself and Pietro, kind of a subconscious thing.
    I'm still very much in support of them being mutants -- and I fully acknowledge my X-Men BIAS as the reasoning.

    There are many mutants out there who tap into extradimensional energy sources ( Nightcrawler, for example, teleports by way of displacing himself into an adjacent dimension -- hence the sound and odor effect) as their primary "mutant power" and my thought with Billy and Tommy is that each of them is accessing/harnessing such sources --- as conduits for space/time, respectively -- which I doubly enjoy because of their being twins and space/time feeling very "paired".

    I realize this is likely putting waaaaaaaaaaaay too much complicated(?) thought into their power source narrative but, I would definitely agree that Wanda's powers influenced their respective mirroring of she and Pietro's abilities, but said abilities translate differently than their Mother and Uncle.

    Billy, for example, in my mind, is breaching space/(reality) barriers, rather than "shaping reality". He is subconsciously (with greater and greater ease) cherry picking dimensional energies for a variety of results -- force fields, lightning/electrical-current approximations, spatial/energy signature awareness (locator spell), transmutation etc -- which is why I'd love to see him study under a variety of Magicians/Sorcerers/Witches (Clea, Voodoo, Illyana, etc) to better understand these sources he's tapping into.
    Disclaimer: This explanation spiraled out of one of Bendis's (What? For real??) Uncanny X-Men stories involving Illyana and Dormamu and interdimensional energy siphoning.
    And whereas Billy is breaching "space", I feel that Tommy is breaching "time" -- relativistic time manipultion --effectively accelerating his own personal time field, granting him all the traditional(?) benefits/feats that come with having super speed.

    Forgive the rambling/derailment.
    Last edited by Fokken; 02-13-2018 at 06:20 AM.

  10. #11920
    Astonishing Member Beetle's Avatar
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    Whether Wiccan and Speed are mutants or not depends on what their origin actually is and whether they are actually genetically related to Wanda.

    At the moment I believe the explanation is that they are the souls of Wanda and Vision's twins, sent back in time and born to regular humans. But that doesn't explain why Billy and Tommy are identical to each other or why Magneto seemed to believe they shared a physical resemblance to a younger Wanda and Pietro. There has to be a genetic component to their relationship to Wanda.
    And if there is a genetic component, say Wanda's DNA overrode the genetics of the Kaplans and Shepherds when their souls were reincarnated there, then their mutant status would depend on if Wanda and Pietro have the X-gene or not (which is up in the air at best)

    Personally I think Wanda unwittingly created Billy and Tommy at the height of her power, retrieved their souls from wherever they were, altered memories and gave them the normal lives and families she never could. And if that's the case then she would have created them when she thought she was a mutant so she could have made them with the X-gene.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaubier View Post
    That’s exactly what Rowell is doing. She basically spelled it out on page. I can get behind it. I just hope we get some insight on what changed for Nico and why Karolina has become a missed opportunity for her. I’m glad we’ll see more of Karolina’s relationship with Julie soon. Curious how it’ll be depicted.

    I do hope the Xavin plot thread is resolved but I do not want Xavin and Karolina to get back together at this point.

    Xavin is not trans (according to Xavin, the Skrull don’t have gender) and would be closer to gender fluid. But as Xavin only initially took a female body to please Karolina, the whole thing was pretty problematic. Not exactly what I’d call great representation tbh.
    The way Xavin has been portrayed may be problematic but ignoring the character and sweeping them under the rug doesn't fix that.
    Xavin initially took a female form for Karolina's sake, but they learned something about themself in the process. Xavin enjoyed being a woman with Karolina, and they may not have discovered that part of themself without her. It's messy and it's not the ideal portrayal of a genderqueer character. But there's potential there for an interesting story analogous to someone needing an outside push to start exploring their gender identity.

    And frankly I'm not crazy about Julie and Karolina's relationship since we've been told it's a good relationship more than shown. It feels very shallow. They've held hands and kissed while flying a few times, wow.

  11. #11921
    Ultimate Member Fokken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beetle View Post
    Whether Wiccan and Speed are mutants or not depends on what their origin actually is and whether they are actually genetically related to Wanda.

    At the moment I believe the explanation is that they are the souls of Wanda and Vision's twins, sent back in time and born to regular humans. But that doesn't explain why Billy and Tommy are identical to each other or why Magneto seemed to believe they shared a physical resemblance to a younger Wanda and Pietro. There has to be a genetic component to their relationship to Wanda.
    And if there is a genetic component, say Wanda's DNA overrode the genetics of the Kaplans and Shepherds when their souls were reincarnated there, then their mutant status would depend on if Wanda and Pietro have the X-gene or not (which is up in the air at best)

    Personally I think Wanda unwittingly created Billy and Tommy at the height of her power, retrieved their souls from wherever they were, altered memories and gave them the normal lives and families she never could. And if that's the case then she would have created them when she thought she was a mutant so she could have made them with the X-gene.
    I would agree with the "I'm a mutant, so I made mutant babies" -- whether conscious or subconscious.


    Per Xavin:
    It's messy and it's not the ideal portrayal of a genderqueer character. But there's potential there for an interesting story analogous to someone needing an outside push to start exploring their gender identity.
    Yes.
    The biggest achievement in my mind with Xavin is that XAVIN IS THOUGHT-PROVOKING. The character's existence/arc makes for an excellent platform for discussion -- gender identity, sexual fluidity, cultural sensitivity, etc etc.

  12. #11922
    Astonishing Member legion_quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beetle View Post

    And frankly I'm not crazy about Julie and Karolina's relationship since we've been told it's a good relationship more than shown. It feels very shallow. They've held hands and kissed while flying a few times, wow.
    That's just because as characters, they rarely appear, and now Karoline is appearing, the writer is doing some queerbaiting tumblr romance with Nico instead of exploring an actual lesbian relationship.

    Xavin causes more problems than the character is worth imo, get a proper trans character up to bat, one that comes with struggles and actually tells the story of being trans, not just an alien that shape shifts and gives 0 fs about it. It's not going to headline a book; I doubt we will ever see KoiBoy as a solo star, the audience just isnt there, but a mini as a spin off of a character in a team book, or even the way he was just introduced and it wasnt made a big deal of, but could be a story for some time, sure. You could get that sold for 4 issues.

    That's the issue I think any minority character will always have - it'd be great to have a big discussion about gender identity and fluidity and things like that - but the average reader of comics wont buy it, so it'll get canned and Marvel will second guess doing it again or using that characteristic as a trait to focus on.

    Sad as it may be, Marvel is a business and not a social concern. They should definitely include more stories that tackle issues, but some issues are just never going to be big enough to be worth it for them. That's why we have smaller companies that can tackle those things, and have to look for the small wins to help Marvel realise there is an audience for some things.
    I will raise my throne above the Stars of God

  13. #11923
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anduinel View Post
    I think Shatterstar has the best chance just due to the tone of the Deadpool films. It might not be anything serious, but I could see something like Wade giving Shatty a Bugs Bunny kiss, obvs played for laughs, then having Shatty either return it later or ask if they can do it again or some such.
    Not only due to the tone of the movie, but also due to the R-Rated nature, which gives them more room for being risky. And after the massive success of the first movie even with the ban on China, FOX probably feels a lot more comfortable doing things without having to cater to a more conservative audience. It's not ideal, but Deadpool might really be our best shot right now. With X-Force in the cards, I'm hoping Ricstar will be a thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beetle View Post
    Whether Wiccan and Speed are mutants or not depends on what their origin actually is and whether they are actually genetically related to Wanda.

    At the moment I believe the explanation is that they are the souls of Wanda and Vision's twins, sent back in time and born to regular humans. But that doesn't explain why Billy and Tommy are identical to each other or why Magneto seemed to believe they shared a physical resemblance to a younger Wanda and Pietro. There has to be a genetic component to their relationship to Wanda.
    Eh, I'm not so sure about that. I mean, there was nothing naturally genetic about Wanda's pregnancy in the first place. She wasn't inseminated in any way science could possibly explain, so I think it's a stretch to try to apply it to Billy and Tommy as well, specially when there's reincarnation involved. Magic and reality warping are all the explanation you need as to why Billy and Tommy look the way they do. Later writers could always retcon their origin to try and make sense of the genetic argument, I guess, but as their origin stands right now, I don't really buy it.
    Last edited by Drops Of Venus; 02-13-2018 at 11:00 AM.

  14. #11924
    Mighty Member NexusTenebrare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beetle View Post
    Whether Wiccan and Speed are mutants or not depends on what their origin actually is and whether they are actually genetically related to Wanda.
    That's not technically correct. Whatever their origins, they could still be mutants. Mutants don't need to be born from mutant parents. It's just more likely.
    So whatever their connection to Wanda (who I'm pretty sure is officially no longer a mutant) , unless Marvel specifically states otherwise, Billy and Tommy could be mutants.
    #EmmaWasRight

  15. #11925
    Astonishing Member Beetle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by legion_quest View Post
    That's just because as characters, they rarely appear, and now Karoline is appearing, the writer is doing some queerbaiting tumblr romance with Nico instead of exploring an actual lesbian relationship.

    Xavin causes more problems than the character is worth imo, get a proper trans character up to bat, one that comes with struggles and actually tells the story of being trans, not just an alien that shape shifts and gives 0 fs about it. It's not going to headline a book; I doubt we will ever see KoiBoy as a solo star, the audience just isnt there, but a mini as a spin off of a character in a team book, or even the way he was just introduced and it wasnt made a big deal of, but could be a story for some time, sure. You could get that sold for 4 issues.
    Julie isn't a lesbian so calling their relationship "lesbian" is inaccurate. And Rowell is going to use Julie in upcoming issues and explore their relationship so I don't know where your complaint is coming from other than a belief that Nico can't possibly be actually interested in Karolina.
    And frankly it shouldn't all have fallen on Rowell to explore the Julie/Karolina relationship. Gage never developed the Julie/Karolina relationship beyond "rainbow girls who like girls", but eiither one of those characters could have shown up in other books since Avengers Academy ended: White Tiger and Power Man were part of Ewing's Mighty and New Avengers, Nico was in A-Force. But the writers of those books just weren't interested in using Julie or Karolina or developing their relationship because there's very little there.

    I didn't call Xavin trans, I personally think they are more likely genderfluid. And I don't think it's fair to say Xavin "gave 0 fs" about their gender identity, there were several instances of Xavin changing their outward appearance and how they express their gender in order to make the others more comfortable. And I think that there's an interesting story there about a character changing themself to fit society's narrow views of gender roles because they care about making people comfortable more than feeling comfortable themself, of how a change in circumstances can change what gender makes them feel more comfortable in the moment.
    Karolina and Xavin were so young when they were together, and it was so long ago. Karolina is at a liberal arts college now instead of living in a literal cave. There are more resources available to educate them on these issues, so they can both articulate themselves better, they can have an informed discussion. A decent writer could make Xavin less problematic.

    I think it's important to remember that for better or worse Xavin is one of the most prominent examples of genderfluid characters in Marvel. The only other character I can think of who is more prominent is Loki (who is also a shapeshifter btw). Xavin has the potential to make an impact on a larger audience than most new characters. The Runaways are a popular franchise and Xavin may appear in future seasons of the live action show. And with the upcoming Captain Marvel movie, the Skrulls as a race are probably going to make a big return in a few years and Xavin could potentially be part of that inevitable event.
    Yes the execution with Xavin has been problematic, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't try to address those issues and mitigate them.

    And I don't think its fair to say you can't use both Xavin and a proper trans character, as if you can only have one or the other. That just sounds like tokenism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    Eh, I'm not so sure about that. I mean, there was nothing naturally genetic about Wanda's pregnancy in the first place. She wasn't inseminated in any way science could possibly explain, so I think it's a stretch to try to apply it to Billy and Tommy as well, specially when there's reincarnation involved. Magic and reality warping are all the explanation you need as to why Billy and Tommy look the way they do. Later writers could always retcon their origin to try and make sense of the genetic argument, I guess, but as their origin stands right now, I don't really buy it.
    So when choosing to reincarnate her kids Wanda just warped these two random kids to make them look identical to each other. And gave them powers similar to her brother's and her own. And she made it so these powers wouldn't manifest until puberty like a mutant. But she wasn't tinkering with genetics at all? That just seems complicated.

    Quote Originally Posted by NexusTenebrare View Post
    That's not technically correct. Whatever their origins, they could still be mutants. Mutants don't need to be born from mutant parents. It's just more likely.
    So whatever their connection to Wanda (who I'm pretty sure is officially no longer a mutant) , unless Marvel specifically states otherwise, Billy and Tommy could be mutants.
    You're right, Mutants don't need to be born from Mutant parents. But if their parent is superpowered and not a Mutant, and they inherit those powers exactly then they probably aren't a Mutant.

    Like in MC2, Mayday Parker inherited Spider powers but was not an X-gene mutant. Same with her RYV counterpart Annie.
    Hulk's kids Skaar and Lyra weren't mutants.
    Spider-Woman's son Gerry, has her spider powers but afaik isn't a mutant.

    So it's more likely that if Wiccan and Speed are somehow genetically related to Wanda, they would have her High Evolutionary altered genetics and not an X-gene.

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