Readers of Doomsday Clock all SPOILERS thread

[mr_crisp]

Maybe it's Manhattan in Ronnie's head?

I was thinking the same thing.

[Coco Loco]

Maybe it's Manhattan in Ronnie's head?

Possible. Possible also that Dr. Manhattan has always been Martin Stein, or vice versa.

[Cville]

I'm glad they got Superman's costume right. It may be a small thing but it tells me that someone is paying attention to the continuity details.

On an unrelated note, does anyone else feel like there's no direction for the overall Rebirth story? We're 2 years past the Rebirth one-shot and while we've been given a lot of disparate plot elements, there's been no semblance of a larger story.

I'm of the mind that Rebirth is just a way to keep the angry New 52 fans at bay. DC has been stinging it along because they like being able to work with a fresh start , but don't want the backlash.

[Doctor Bifrost]

On an unrelated note, does anyone else feel like there's no direction for the overall Rebirth story? We're 2 years past the Rebirth one-shot and while we've been given a lot of disparate plot elements, there's been no semblance of a larger story.

Every now and then (and more and more often), DC gives themselves an opportunity for a fresh start. A point where they can do some thoughtful world building, including those elements that they carefully select to be included, and leaving the others behind as a respected part of DC's publication history, but not part of the current continuity of the DCU. And designing it so the relationships and backstories of interrelated characters make sense and yield the relationships between them that they want. And then move forward from there.

But that's not what they ever do. Various writers scratch at the past like a scab, bringing in more and more previous elements that they just happen to like or remember, whether it fits the "new vision" or not. Some characters wind up having relationships that readers are just accustomed to, but the new version of continuity doesn't support. Or have a relationship based on vague, unexplicated backstories that will never be laid out for us. Other characters who should be connected, and formerly were, are assigned ad hoc backstories that leave them unconnected, decoupling the characters from any character development they might have had.

(This was particularly the case with Donna Troy, when the post-Crisis on Infinite Earths decision was made to have Diana start her superhero career years after Superman, Batman, and Teen Titans. So we wound up with a young character a lot like Wonder Woman - similar superhero name, similar powers, similar accoutrements such as lasso and bracelets - running around years before Wonder Woman herself, and essentially unconnected to her, and none of the characters even raising an eyebrow at the "coincidence." These days it's spread further. Barry Allen and Ginger Wally West are only connected in some of Barry's multiple, overlapping, contradictory memories - I can't really say which, if any, of Wally's activities "happened" in the current timeline from the point of view of people on the street, reporters, supervillains, or anybody Wally hasn't had a heart-to-heart talk with. And as of yet I have no idea if Garth/Tempest spent a substantial part of his early life as Aquaman's sidekick Aqualad. I'm not sure I've even seen a conversation between the two of them since The New 52 started.)

Writers dealing with various characters use some details from this continuity and some details from that continuity, not because they're selecting carefully, but because nobody really remembers what's "currently true" (if anybody ever decided to begin with), and the editors aren't keeping track. And as different writers do this - or the same writer, at different times - you get conflicting stories.

And after a few years editors tell big-name writers "sure, go ahead, give us your Big New Take on that character that we've already been using in the new continuity and mainly treated like his old history was intact. You don't have to coordinate it with anything or anybody. It'll be fine."

And then... well, you get the point. The fact that there is "no direction for the overall Rebirth story" - where Rebirth is a story, like CoIE, that can change the history and backstories of the DCU - is perfectly in keeping with DC's practices.

As a fan of world building and continuity (among other things, such as good dialogue and snappy pacing and interesting characterization; I don't find them mutually exclusive), I have been repeatedly disappointed by this over the years. And yet I find myself thinking - "Hey, after Doomsday Clock, when Dr. Manhattan is done readjusting DCU history, maybe...!"

There are two expressions associated with this attitude of mine. One is: "The triumph of hope over experience!" The other is: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." (Or, as GWB finished it, "Can't get fooled again!")

Also: "Hey, guys, this isn't rocket surgery!"

But that's just me.

[Black Manta]

I also got the impression that Manhattan is Stein or pretending to be Stein, so maybe that's too obvious. The scene with Firestorm being attacked by the crowd seems reminiscent of the reporters crowding Manhattan in Watchmen. I don't remember Firestorm ever having pupils. Is that a clue or just an artistic choice? Is this Pozhar still Michael, the Russian that was once fused with Ronnie as Firestorm? Maybe that's who Manhattan is? Or maybe he's the Russian hero with a gold face? He doesn't look familiar.

[CaptCleghorn]

I'm of the mind that Rebirth is just a way to keep the angry New 52 fans at bay. DC has been stinging it along because they like being able to work with a fresh start , but don't want the backlash.

DC's had a habit of going back on some parts of their comics after a reboot. We saw that with Crisis and we're seeing it with nu52. Rebirth started as a big company-wide event, but each book seemed to be handling their particular issues themselves. Superman, Flash, Batman all dealt with stuff. I'm not reading many DC series now, and admittedly I would be reading LSH and JSA. I don't see a big companywide crossover event handling all of this. The future setting of DClock (a few months as seen by the newspapers) isolates the story and limits immediate crossing over. I expect a plethora of new series and big changes after DColock 12.

Two team books in particular.

[MajorHoy]

. . . I expect a plethora of new series and big changes after DColock 12.

NOTE: the correct spelling for "Severe pain in the abdomen caused by wind or obstruction in the intestines and suffered especially by babies" is "colic".

[Dataweaver]

Unless it's the actual return of the JSA, and not just another hint that they could exist (somewhere), I don't know.
DC / Geoff Johns have wasted wayyyyyy too much of my time with the promise (but not the delivery) that the actual JSA (not those New52 Earth 2 wannabes) would be back. I'm not sure if I even care anymore because I don't know if I trust any of DC's writers to handle them the way they should be handled.

No, it’s not the actual return of the JSA. However, remember that Doomsday Clock isn’t written by a generic DC writer; it’s written by Geoff Johns, whose reputation for promoting DC’s rich history is unmatched. I have no doubt that by the end of Doomsday Clock, a WWII-era JSA will have been restored to DC’s history.

My real concern is what will happen after that. In DCU Rebirth, Geoff Johns brough Wally West back into the DCU… and then, in Heroes in Crisis, Dan Didio murdered him. I have no doubt that Johns will give the JSA a triumphant return; but after that, if the team ends up falling into Didio’s hands, it may well suffer the same fate as the Rebirth Titans.

[MajorHoy]

No, it’s not the actual return of the JSA. However, remember that Doomsday Clock isn’t written by a generic DC writer; it’s written by Geoff Johns, whose reputation for promoting DC’s rich history is unmatched. I have no doubt that by the end of Doomsday Clock, a WWII-era JSA will have been restored to DC’s history.

They're not restored yet, and I think waiting over two-and-a-half years is already long enough; don't know if I'll even care any longer if it's not happening until maybe mid-2019!

I'm that frustrated /annoyed with how DC is handling all of this; I'd rather have stayed with the pre-Rebirth world at this point.

[Dataweaver]

So be it. I get the frustration; but I also get why it's taking so long.

[Scott Taylor]

They're not restored yet, and I think waiting over two-and-a-half years is already long enough; don't know if I'll even care any longer if it's not happening until maybe mid-2019!

I'm that frustrated /annoyed with how DC is handling all of this; I'd rather have stayed with the pre-Rebirth world at this point.

Yah I want and don't want the JSA back. For my own part, I hated the John-led series.

[MajorHoy]

Yah I want and don't want the JSA back. For my own part, I hated the John-led series.

I'm sort of in two minds on that.
I've read a lot (but not all) of the 1999-2006 JSA series (which Johns didn't write for the initial arc of the series nor for the last couple of arcs) and in general that run was good.
But after Infinite Crisis, when the series was relaunched as Justice Society of America and added a bajillion "legacy" members (some with shaky or no ties to other Golden Age members), he let things get away from him and wound up with a fuster-cluck.

[Scott Taylor]

It was the relaunch after Infinite Crisis that I was referring to. It was almost the polar opposite of what I want in a series with those characters.

[caj]

I've read a lot (but not all) of the 1999-2006 JSA series (which Johns didn't write for the initial arc of the series nor for the last couple of arcs) and in general that run was good.
But after Infinite Crisis, when the series was relaunched as Justice Society of America and added a bajillion "legacy" members (some with shaky or no ties to other Golden Age members), he let things get away from him and wound up with a fuster-cluck.

I completely agree. The reason I picked up JSA in the first place was because of the golden age characters - Sentinal, Flash, Hippolyta, Wildcat, Sand, etc...

When Justice Society of America came out, I was completely bored with the 'new kids' angst. I dropped it quickly.

[Dataweaver]

I didn't mind the new kids, for the most part; what bothered me about it was the detour into Kingdom Come territory — specifically, Magog and the Superman of Earth-22. OTOH, Cyclone was very much derived from KC, and she was one of my favorites.