All Purpose News and Politics Thread Part IV: The Center Cannot Hold

[WestPhillyPunisher]

This 'America: love it or leave it' hypocrisy from the right is laughable. If they actually believed that then they would have left the country during the Clinton and Obama administrations.

Indeed. And god knows Trump did more than his fair share of bitching about how the country was run while Obama was in office, though it could be argued that was mainly because he hated seeing a black man in the Oval Office.

[aja_christopher]

But at this juncture, people just aren't willing to wait and see anymore, because we've tried that approach and it's gotten us nowhere.

It hasn't gotten us nowhere -- many advancements have been made in equality and civil rights over the past few decades, usually under Democratic leadership.

The problem is the Republicans who continue to obstruct or eliminate any legislation that addresses these issues, not "moderate" Democrats.

It can be argued that one might think the party isn't "progressive" enough -- and that's mainly due to the lack of voter support for said candidates -- but it can't realistically be argued that said approach "has gotten us nowhere" given how much things have changed in the past generation alone (desegregation, LGBT marriage, the affordable health care act, etc) or even the fact that the Democratic party helped nominate and re-elect the first African-American president in America's history.

The problem isn't "moderate" Democrats -- like Clinton or Obama who actually win elections -- the problem is the Republican party's obstruction and direct attacks on the civil rights of American citizens and immigrants, and the solution is voting them out of Congress and the White House so the Democrats will have the votes to actually pass legislation.

We'd have universal health care today -- as proposed by the "moderate" Hillary Clinton back in 1993 -- if it weren't for Republicans. We'd still have police oversight in place -- as proposed by the "moderate" Obama -- if it weren't for Republicans. We'd be addressing climate change today -- as we did under Obama -- if it weren't for Republicans rolling back said legislation. Likewise, there would be no record deficit(s) due to unneeded tax cuts and we wouldn't have a white nationalist in the White House today if it weren't for Republicans.

Place the blame where it belongs -- not on Democrats but on the Republican party.

[Tendrin]

OH WBE-EEeeeeee… stuff for your 2020 update of Mike Kelly. :P

Before the House voted along party lines to condemn President Trump for his racist tweets and rhetoric about four congresswomen of color, a white Republican lawmaker made the outlandish claim that he is a “person of color” because he’s white.


“You know, they talk about people of color. I’m a person of color,” Rep. Mike Kelly (R-PA) told Vice News reporter Daniel Newhauser Tuesday as they discussed Trump telling the four congresswomen — Reps. Ilhan Omar (D-MN), Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY), Ayanna Pressley (D-MA) and Rashida Tlaib (D-MI) — to go back to their home countries, even though all four are U.S. citizens and three were born in the U.S.
“I’m white. I’m an Anglo Saxon. People say things all the time, but I don’t get offended,” he said.
“Has anybody ever told you to go back to your country?” Newhauser asked.
“Yeah they have actually. With a name like Mike Kelly you can’t be from any place else but Ireland.’”
Listen for yourself below:

[WestPhillyPunisher]

OH WBE-EEeeeeee… stuff for your 2020 update of Mike Kelly. :P

Jesus. On behalf of Pennsylvania where this asshat hails, I humbly apologize for this four alarm fool being a representative of the Keystone State. I'd love it if Kelly sauntered into predominately black West Philadelphia where I live and proudly proclaim himself as a "person of color". chances are excellent he'd be laughed at before getting the **** kicked out of him. The lengths Republicans go to protect and enable Trump. It's astonishing.

[Theleviathan]

You cant say anything.

Why ?

Because immaterial of what you say the Republican base wont believe you and the term "socialist" has been made poison by them. Even though there are several nations working quite well using socialist ideals (not necessarily full on socialism but like all good governments picking and choosing)

I fear you are correct.

[aja_christopher]

TThe thing is, The some of the policies that Sanders, AOC, Warren (?) are talking about are connecting with people ( healthcare reform, minimum wage, debt reform, etc). That's why the Republicans are coming after them so hard. Notice despite her being a WoC they don't say half the crap about Harris that they say about Cortez and Omar. Harris is on the radio claiming she smoked weed and listened to Snopp Dogg! Imagine if Cortez said that? It's cause Harris a blue dog and they think they can get what they want from her. With the others, they know they'll have a fight on their hands and they'll have to compromise.

I think it's more because they are afraid of Harris because she knows that she can -- and has said she will -- prosecute them for their crimes if she gets elected and cowards and bullies usually don't try to attack people they fear unless they have to.



They'll attack her more if she becomes the frontrunner but for now -- like most cowards -- they are going for the easier targets like the "radical socialists".

Also, note that even though you might call her a "blue dog" she comes from one of the most progressive states in America, especially when it comes to civil rights and medical care -- there's a world of difference between a Mississippi Democrat and a California Democrat (and Mississippi and California voters) which is why it's often inaccurate to try to define the party with labels like "blue dog" and "moderate" based on personal judgement alone.

[kidfresh512]

That young woman does always come off like she is putting a tremendous effort into not forgetting the recipe for ice.

She makes Katrina Pierson look positively competent.

I almost wonder if it is strictly "Bit" to act in the usual Ben Carson/Rudy Giuliani "Smoke Bomb" capacity.

CNN pissed me off having her on for so long as a pundit. Its one of my biggest pet peeves with CNN they try so hard to "show both sides" they let these idiots get too much airtime.

[Theleviathan]

None other than MLK Jr. himself warned of the dangers of putting too much trust in moderates. The fundamental issue is that while most of these people find racism to be distasteful and will vocally denounce it, they benefit materially from it and thus will stop well short of any substantial action to effect meaningful change. I feel like what these moderates are advocating for is just for minorities to stop talking about their problems so that white people don't need to feel bad about it, and hoping for things to miraculously work themselves out at some unspecified time in the future. But at this juncture, people just aren't willing to wait and see anymore, because we've tried that approach and it's gotten us nowhere.

We absolutely need revolutionaries and people to push the agenda. I've made clear I appreciate their efforts to charge in and lend voice to things unvoiced. But if we're going to use MLK as an example....at the end of the day he needed those same moderates to finish the job. You can't trust that moderates will move the needle forward, but you damn sure need them when the time comes for legislation.

When more people like AOC or Sanders or whomever win elections, great! But that isn't the case now and probably for the forseeable future. They don't need to "wait" but more self-awareness of their position of strength would be wise.

[WestPhillyPunisher]

CNN pissed me off having her on for so long as a pundit. Its one of my biggest pet peeves with CNN they try so hard to "show both sides" they let these idiots get too much airtime.

I guess CNN would rather straddle the fence by presenting "both sides" than be an overtly shameless, blatantly biased propaganda arm like Faux News is for the Republican party. I can grasp that rationale.

[kidfresh512]

I guess CNN would rather straddle the fence by presenting "both sides" than be an overtly shameless, blatantly biased propaganda arm like Faux News is for the Republican party. I can grasp that rationale.

I don't think it is an either or proposition. You don't have to hire and promote shameless shills that have arguments with no basis in reality. Especially over and over. If they demonstrate they will not stick to facts or reality then you are done go peddle your crap at Fox. It's getting harder and harder the further trump consumes the entire conservative spectrum to find people who are still reality based and will call a spade a spade. Since those people get immediately attacked by their own side. But, I am interested in hearing viewpoints from any side that are logical and operate in reality.

I don't look for an echo chamber but listening to talking points based on lies, or blind shameless defense of the indefensible is not it.

[Theleviathan]

I don't think it is an either or proposition. You don't have to hire and promote shameless shills that have arguments with no basis in reality. Especially over and over. If they demonstrate they will not stick to facts or reality then you are done go peddle your crap at Fox. It's getting harder and harder the further trump consumes the entire conservative spectrum to find people who are still reality based and will call a spade a spade. Since those people get immediately attacked by their own side. But, I am interested in hearing viewpoints from any side that are logical and operate in reality.

I don't look for an echo chamber but listening to talking points based on lies, or blind shameless defense of the indefensible is not it.

Thing is, a significant portion of the populace is regurgitating those lies and defending the indefensible. Shouldn't that be challenged openly and publicly?

I don't know if there is a good answer to this in terms of public discourse. (Beyond - kick the Republicans' asses so they are forced to change)

[KOSLOX]

The pattern has been almost always the same: A conservative/right winger saunters in, full of support for the likes of Trump and the GOP, presents semi-logical/rational arguments in the beginning, gets into increasingly heated discussions with us liberals, then loses his mind, says crazy **** like Bonesaw and WHAMMO! Ban city! I'm sure others like him will swing by and repeat history.

Oh, you should see the meltdowns we've gotten over on the Diversity/Minority issues thread. We can usually figure out within the first post how long someone will last.

[WestPhillyPunisher]

I don't think it is an either or proposition. You don't have to hire and promote shameless shills that have arguments with no basis in reality. Especially over and over. If they demonstrate they will not stick to facts or reality then you are done go peddle your crap at Fox. It's getting harder and harder the further trump consumes the entire conservative spectrum to find people who are still reality based and will call a spade a spade. Since those people get immediately attacked by their own side. But, I am interested in hearing viewpoints from any side that are logical and operate in reality.

I don't look for an echo chamber but listening to talking points based on lies, or blind shameless defense of the indefensible is not it.

Not to stick up for CNN, but perhaps they can't find any right wing pundits who haven't gone cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs, so they figure, better that than nobody. Or maybe it all boils down to something as simple, and shallow, as producers intentionally putting conservative loopjobs on the air just for the screaming matches with left leaners that inevitably take place. You tell me.

Oh, you should see the meltdowns we've gotten over on the Diversity/Minority issues thread. We can usually figure out within the first post how long someone will last.

I can imagine.

[Mister Mets]

In case you haven't noticed, you're the only person who seems to be concerned about this "ambiguity" -- to the point where you won't directly address the racist, criminal, and abusive policies currently being enacted by your party.

You need to just accept that others don't necessarily agree with that perspective and move on to something else.

There are plenty on the left who seem to be concerned about the party's positioning on immigration.

Here's a New York magazine discussion on the question.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019...migration.html

Here's Kevin Drum of Mother Jones.

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dr...-open-borders/

I might be a bit different from them in that they seem bothered by Democrats taking an unpopular position, and I think the position would have bad policy effects.

I disagree with the idea that it prevents me from addressing other issues, because these are different topics. Views on immigration policy don't really touch on the questions of global warming, Russian interference, whatever.

So, there is tape of not just Trump partying hard (and dancing badly) with Jeffrey Epstein and a few dozen cheer leaders, one scene also clearly shows Trump groping one of the women repeatedly.
Or, as the more seasoned news people call days like this, Wednesday.

It'll be interesting to see what these women have to say about what happened.

Black and an immigrant. Will Republicans disdain for AOC be enough to overlook that?

I doubt the Republicans will be the ones to stop her from winning a congressional seat in the Bronx.

[Mister Mets]

Thanks for the answers to the question of what is the most important issue.

Let me throw another one in here that doesn't get much mention - the declining effectiveness of antibiotics. In a fashion similar to climate change, this has the potential to mess things up on a geological time scale. Everything else is a short term problem compared to those two.

However, green technology has the potential to do serious damage to Russia's bid for influence since a lot of their power is based on providing energy to Europe. Take the threat of turning off the pipelines away from them and they lose a major source of economic power. Plus, we can stop worrying so much about the Middle East outside of the shipping lanes.

Racism. America's original sin that has never been adequately addressed, and continue to kick the can down the road will just make the inevitable fallout that much worse. And this isn't just out of naive idealism, the reason most Republican economic and social policies fail so miserably is because they think that they can offload all of their problems onto minorities who will somehow be willing to bear that burden without complaint, and then act shocked and appalled when the blowback bites their precious white working class in the ass.

Getting Republicans out of office at this point, as they impede progress on nearly every issue that I think is worthy of concern -- including record-setting debt, the failure to address climate change, the failure to address Russian interference in our democracy, and a steadfast push towards criminal, authoritarian rule.

Put me down for the rapid changes in technology because they have tremendous effects across all the issues. It's why UBI should be a serious conversation point, why any conversation about global warming involves changes in tech, about job losses, etc. It's tech and it's really not even close. (Global warming is serious, but still a little ways off. The tech issue could be in the next decade)

Though aj is right, the first priority is destroying this brand of Republicanism. I'm totally cool with a Kasich-like version re-emerging, but this toxic brand has to go.

I'd say it's Climate Change and Income Inequity. Both of which the Republicans are on the wrong side of history.They deny CC is happening and do everything they can to make things worse. Trump is particularly an enviornmental ogre. And their policies and obsession with Tax Cuts for the Rich only puts more and more of the percentage of wealth into the hands of those at the top.

My other brother who works in Washington gave another response: the decline in civility.