Minorities in Comics and Other Media, etc

[BroHomo]

Now, I'm not saying bigotry can't factor into discussions, as bigotry can jump into any internet discussion at any time and make it worse because bigotry is objectively bad,

It usually always does best to come from an honest place from jump

how the inclusion and portrayal of minorities can be criticized in such a way that doesn't seem like it comes off as an attack, doesn't seem like it comes off as malicious, and doesn't seem like it comes off out of hatred

Be a minority

is there truly a way to make constructive criticism in regards to how minorities are included and portrayed in comics in a way that's still considerate, and respectful, and responsible

You gotta have a considerate and respectful attitude towards the minorities you're criticizing. Your critique will be taken as such

[MindofShadow]

Been seeing discussions involving political correctness and diversity of minorities in comics in a way that's really thinking me think right now. It seems that whenever there's criticism regarding the portrayal of minorities in modern comics, there always seems to be this reaction towards it in a way that I think can be basically summed up as, "You should be ashamed of yourself, how dare you criticize something so important, you're a bad person, so you should be shunned and banned."

Now, I'm not saying bigotry can't factor into discussions, as bigotry can jump into any internet discussion at any time and make it worse because bigotry is objectively bad, but with that said, I'm wondering, at least assuming it's possible, how the inclusion and portrayal of minorities can be criticized in such a way that doesn't seem like it comes off as an attack, doesn't seem like it comes off as malicious, and doesn't seem like it comes off out of hatred.

So, without having to necessarily mention what other people think, and instead focus on your personal thoughts, I guess what I'm really trying to ask you guys here is that is there truly a way to make constructive criticism in regards to how minorities are included and portrayed in comics in a way that's still considerate, and respectful, and responsible, because I get the feeling there's a way, but not I'm just sure how to put it into words.

IMO, people generally get in trouble when they start adding qualifying statements to what they are saying.

"I'm not racist but..."

"I have black friends and...."

"My favorite character is [insert no name minority character] and I think..."

It doesn't come off as genuine at all. It comes across as you know what you are going to stay is fundamentally wrong but you want to say it anyway.

They just need to say what they want without qualifying statements and without emotion.

[Gryphon]

For those who want to support more WoC on youtube, check out lady Pelvic's new video

[KOSLOX]

I'd actually pre-order a remake of Parasite Eve. I'd want the series rebooted though, might as well get a fresh start using the IP.

[Anthony Shaw]

Comics Harley has been trash since her debut. Her stans have been writing empowerment fan fiction for her ever since they saw Joker hit her in the cartoon and thought "Hey! That's not nice!"

What's funny is that the improvements they think they've made to the character have made her so much worse over the years.

I agree. At the end of the day, she was a college educated, trained professional (+ full grown woman) who chose to ride or die with arguably the most notorious outlaw in DC history. DC continuity is a mess, but she has to be an accessory to some of Joker's crimes during their time together. She should have no shortage of victims (or their survivors) with a legitimate ax to grind with Harley.

Too bad Janet Van Dyne did not get a more substantial push in modern times (despite the various need for writers to rehash Hank Pym's sins).

[Anthony Shaw]

I'm way too excited about this show lol

I don't really care for comic Falcon but love MCU falcon

I am very excited for this, too.

If Ed Brubaker could go back in time when he wrote the comic version of them (during the Bucky-Cap era).

[PwrdOn]

Been seeing discussions involving political correctness and diversity of minorities in comics in a way that's really thinking me think right now. It seems that whenever there's criticism regarding the portrayal of minorities in modern comics, there always seems to be this reaction towards it in a way that I think can be basically summed up as, "You should be ashamed of yourself, how dare you criticize something so important, you're a bad person, so you should be shunned and banned."

Now, I'm not saying bigotry can't factor into discussions, as bigotry can jump into any internet discussion at any time and make it worse because bigotry is objectively bad, but with that said, I'm wondering, at least assuming it's possible, how the inclusion and portrayal of minorities can be criticized in such a way that doesn't seem like it comes off as an attack, doesn't seem like it comes off as malicious, and doesn't seem like it comes off out of hatred.

So, without having to necessarily mention what other people think, and instead focus on your personal thoughts, I guess what I'm really trying to ask you guys here is that is there truly a way to make constructive criticism in regards to how minorities are included and portrayed in comics in a way that's still considerate, and respectful, and responsible, because I get the feeling there's a way, but not I'm just sure how to put it into words.

The way I see it, if you are trying to make a point that you know will get people angry, instead of trying to sugarcoat it with polite language, it's better just to be direct and honest about what you feel. Even if people don't agree with what you are saying, at the very least they will be able to see why you believe what you do and assess your motives and sincerity accordingly. I think most people sort of understand that the fans who are opposed to race swapping are not usually explicitly racist but just want to maintain what they are familiar with, but don't see that as a valid argument because more diverse representation supersedes maintaining the legacy of characters created in less enlightened times.

I do feel like one thing white people maybe need to realize is that there isn't any kind of "colored" equivalent to the mostly white dominated American mass media. Sure, people all over the world are making books, films, and games, but these are nowhere near as well-funded or reach as wide of an audience as mainstream American productions. And in fact a lot of the same problems with representation are found in these productions as well, just think about how many anime characters have blond hair and blue eyes compared to how few are dark skinned, largely due to the tendency of foreign media to try and ape what Hollywood is doing.

[Electricmastro]

The way I see it, if you are trying to make a point that you know will get people angry, instead of trying to sugarcoat it with polite language, it's better just to be direct and honest about what you feel. Even if people don't agree with what you are saying, at the very least they will be able to see why you believe what you do and assess your motives and sincerity accordingly. I think most people sort of understand that the fans who are opposed to race swapping are not usually explicitly racist but just want to maintain what they are familiar with, but don't see that as a valid argument because more diverse representation supersedes maintaining the legacy of characters created in less enlightened times.

I do feel like one thing white people maybe need to realize is that there isn't any kind of "colored" equivalent to the mostly white dominated American mass media. Sure, people all over the world are making books, films, and games, but these are nowhere near as well-funded or reach as wide of an audience as mainstream American productions. And in fact a lot of the same problems with representation are found in these productions as well, just think about how many anime characters have blond hair and blue eyes compared to how few are dark skinned, largely due to the tendency of foreign media to try and ape what Hollywood is doing.

Yeah, while there can be those online that have "smarter than thou"/patronizing attitude, and make accusations despite no evidence, even with the best of intentions, I think that when all is said and done, either you have bad intent or you don't, and a poor choice of words can make conversations only more derailed. It probably helps to back up one's point, assuming it's well-intentioned, to bring up examples and elaborate on them responsibly and intelligently, such as "I feel Marvel's All-New, All-Different approach worked better in 1975 than in 2015, because this, this, and this." and then may come to the result of facing less negative scrutiny. I somehow get the feeling that even black comic book fans and fans of other minorities would reasonably criticize stuff like this as well to an extent.

The white/non-white presence may be may be way to skewed to the white side, but I don't think that makes the non-white productions less valuable/of note either, nor should it discourage people from breaking into the media to begin with. That said, it is an interesting point you bring up in regards to anime characters "seeming more American" and not quite Asian, even though people from places like Japan tend to work on the anime-style of animation the most often though. It may just go to show how many want to reproduce Hollywood's style and success, for better or worse.

[PwrdOn]

The white/non-white presence may be may be way to skewed to the white side, but I don't think that makes the non-white productions less valuable/of note either, nor should it discourage people from breaking into the media to begin with. That said, it is an interesting point you bring up in regards to anime characters "seeming more American" and not quite Asian, even though people from places like Japan tend to work on the anime-style of animation the most often though. It may just go to show how many want to reproduce Hollywood's style and success, for better or worse.

The imbalance here is that white people tend to make movies and shows that everyone watches, whereas productions by non-whites tend to reach only that same demographic and rarely achieve mainstream success. I think that most white people just feel uncomfortable watching something with a predominantly minority cast, like it's not really meant for them and doesn't relate at all to their lives and their problems, and will tend to avoid any "ethnic" media unless guilt tripped into watching it. However, the same thing happens in reverse as well, but it's not realistic for non-white people to avoid watching anything with white characters, because that would cut you off from the vast majority of "prestige" media and restrict you to entertainment that generally has much lower production values, though of course they have their own merits as well. All of this sort of means that it's easy for people of all backgrounds to relate to white leads and see ourselves in their stories, because we've sort of been forced to do that if we wanted to get any enjoyment out of watching movies at all. The question is how can we make minority characters similarly relatable to all audiences, particularly whites who tend to be very resistant to it, but also between different minority groups for which there is a shameful degree of baseless hostility at the moment. Obviously it's going to be a bit of an uncomfortable process at first, but in the end it will broaden everyone's horizons and make everyone's life brighter and more colorful, and isn't that what we all want?

[Agent Z]

For any Transformers fans here, what do you think of the character Jazz? Not necessarily the movie version, but from the franchise as a whole.

[jetengine]

For any Transformers fans here, what do you think of the character Jazz? Not necessarily the movie version, but from the franchise as a whole.

I'm not huge on the comics but the movie versions pretty racist, but its a Bay movie so its to be expected. The 80s cartoon was just a cool guy who liked music and parties but I dont know if was intentionally coded as "Black" like the movie version was.

[Frontier]

I'm not huge on the comics but the movie versions pretty racist, but its a Bay movie so its to be expected. The 80s cartoon was just a cool guy who liked music and parties but I dont know if was intentionally coded as "Black" like the movie version was.

He was voiced by Scatman Crothers, and from his performance I think he was definitely meant to come off "black" compared to the other Autobots although definitely not as stereotypical compared Bay's in my opinion.

What a waste of Darius McCrary...

[Gryphon]

If you are looking for another black youtuber to check out when it comes to fighting games, then check out Rizzy, one of the best when it comes to SNK games

[leo619]

Been seeing discussions involving political correctness and diversity of minorities in comics in a way that's really thinking me think right now. It seems that whenever there's criticism regarding the portrayal of minorities in modern comics, there always seems to be this reaction towards it in a way that I think can be basically summed up as, "You should be ashamed of yourself, how dare you criticize something so important, you're a bad person, so you should be shunned and banned."

Now, I'm not saying bigotry can't factor into discussions, as bigotry can jump into any internet discussion at any time and make it worse because bigotry is objectively bad, but with that said, I'm wondering, at least assuming it's possible, how the inclusion and portrayal of minorities can be criticized in such a way that doesn't seem like it comes off as an attack, doesn't seem like it comes off as malicious, and doesn't seem like it comes off out of hatred.

So, without having to necessarily mention what other people think, and instead focus on your personal thoughts, I guess what I'm really trying to ask you guys here is that is there truly a way to make constructive criticism in regards to how minorities are included and portrayed in comics in a way that's still considerate, and respectful, and responsible, because I get the feeling there's a way, but not I'm just sure how to put it into words.

It ultimately depends upon what the criticism is being delivered. For example, there's tons of constructive criticism given to how Cyborg has been treated since his promotion to JL founder with the new 52, but those primarily delve about him being treated like a second class citizen. If the criticism is based around how POC's are infiltrating our comics than that's a different story entirely. For example, All new All Different Marvel was easily the best push for POC characters seen in arguably comic book history. The amount of successful to semi-successful characters done when they pushed forward with it was the best scene since Milestone Comics. But of course, people have a problem with it because their favorite characters are being replaced. When folks were upset about how they're characters were being removed, I completely understand. But when folks started providing "constructive criticism" on how minority characters are supposed to be included, that's when they get the rightful cold shoulder.

They normally give out anti-inclusive codewords like "forced diversity." and "why can't they just make a new character." Which we all know that translates to "Keep these characters away from books I read." A perfect example of that DC hyping their "Dark Matter" universe and some DC fans talking about how this was "diversity done right." Now, where was the sales behind those books? Compare that the continue successful books from the ANAD heroes and it's clearly obvious what they truly refer to.


So essentially it boils down to what's the basis behind the criticism. If the criticism focuses more on the portrayal, like how Marvel/DC lacks high tier POC characters, that makes perfect sense. If the criticism is more on the implementation of POC characters, well obviously that doesn't fly and mostly won't be accepted.

[leo619]

Maybe...I'd say Catwoman has her beat on that front by some decades. But I do think that Harley combines those elements with the personality of a lovable ditz which probably seems if not fresher, then perhaps for some people more endearing than perhaps the femme fatale or woman warrior archetypes we've had for so long.

Yeah, I can agree withthat. The femme fatale hasn't really been a popular archetype in America. I mean we had black widow for so long, but I rarely seen BW costumes at comic con. Wonder Woman of course blew up and so did Captain Marvel. Though to be honest, by far the most popular costume I saw at SDCC was Spider Gwen, and strange enough I saw just as many miles morales as I did seeing Peter Parker, and the miles morales was folks of all different ethnicities. I saw a lot of Asians dressed up as Miles Morales interesting enough.