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  1. #1126
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I am aware of that old quote by Eliis, and while I don't completely agree with Ellis' statement, I respect it more because he's clearly talking about a partnership, not making mention of one needing the other more or anything like that to prop up one individually. That said there are some degrees to which I disagree. Superman is complete as an individual being before he even meets Lois, in my view. He's complete in his being because of his parents and his experiences up to that point. Lois is a prime example of what he loves about humanity, but he doesn't start loving humanity because of her, he already does before then.
    Wait, was it Rucka who wrote a scene like that in the recent series?

    Because while he's one of my favorite writers and I otherwise really like the series so far, I hate to say I wouldn't be too surprised.

  2. #1127
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I am aware of that old quote by Eliis, and while I don't completely agree with Ellis' statement, I respect it more because he's clearly talking about a partnership, not making mention of one needing the other more or anything like that to prop up one individually. That said there are some degrees to which I disagree. Superman is complete as an individual being before he even meets Lois, in my view. He's complete in his being because of his parents and his experiences up to that point. Lois is a prime example of what he loves about humanity, but he doesn't start loving humanity because of her, he already does before then.
    What about that statement makes you see that a him not loving humanity without Lois? That's not what he's saying.

  3. #1128
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    When he says in part that its her humanity that completes him. That suggests to me his appreciation and love for humanity isn't complete until he meets her. That was always my interpretation of part of the meaning in that.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Wait, was it Rucka who wrote a scene like that in the recent series?

    Because while he's one of my favorite writers and I otherwise really like the series so far, I hate to say I wouldn't be too surprised.
    You know now I can't recall the exact source. It was recent, I now just can't recall if it was Rucka or Bendis....
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-10-2019 at 12:37 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  4. #1129
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    The argument isn't that she's interchangeable. You can't replace Lois Lane in the mythos with Star Reporter/Rival/Love Interest B or C, she's earned that beyond measure. That package all put together is her, cultivated from the very beginning. She's important, always has been. But at the same time "Superman Needs Lois More Than Lois Needs Him" as a statement of in-story or meta connotation of both, is just comical and trying too hard. Its not necessary in-story to paint Superman as a guy who just falls apart without her while she could soldier on without him, and from a meta standpoint, again, its just patently false. Superman can and has thrived in many a story where she's not a part. It all depends on what the story is. Of course you don't want to have her gone just wholesale, you need the balance, but that's not the suggestion. Balance is always key but if we're going hypothetical, where the pendulum would swing one way or another if it was absolutely forced to be one or the other for some unforeseen reason, it would swing in Superman's direction. Its just that these hamfisted types of pronouncements just to gain woke points don't reflect the reality of the total mythos, and its why certain writers fall flat for me despite being otherwise quite skilled.
    This. This was exactly my main point here. I have to clarify, I'm a Lois Lane fan. She is essential to Superman's story in general and has been from the start, IMO, and I DON'T want her to be removed at all. That would be very wrong. She is his main love interest like it or not. I just HATE when writers and directors tell me that Clark/Superman breaks apart without Lois. That's a huge disservice to the character. My Superman is stronger than that. He can mourn like any of us, but he knows people die.
    Last edited by stargazer01; 09-10-2019 at 12:38 PM.

  5. #1130
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I don't count that as "cosmic" type stories since they interact primarily with Superman on Earth. Bizarro does have a strong connection, though I'd argue that it is as a doppelgänger first and foremost and not as a planet of them. So that's not really a "cosmic" element in my view. Kandor & Brainiac... That I'll agree on. Though again, they are elements that are not disconnected from the interaction with the earthbound stuff. Brainiac & Zod are known to interact with Superman within the context of the Earth stuff as well and their scale is contrasted against that. I'm talking mainly about the idea set out that you can strip Superman of all those elements, whether it's the secret ID, the reporter role, etc. and still have a character that is fundamentally "Superman" and not "GenericSuperheroMan"

    You can tell a Brainiac story in a space context with anyone. What would make that a Superman story?
    I think we're on the same page as far as stripping him of his Earth based elements and cast is wrong altogether. And yeah Brainiac and Zod and co all interact with him on Earth as well.

    But him battling Brainiac in space I don't think needs a deeper explanation than him primarily being known as a Superman villain, so who else would he usually be fighting? He was introduced because Superman has a cosmic side. Meanwhile, he battles Lex Luthor on Earth, but so could Batman or Wonder Woman.

  6. #1131
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    When he says in part that its her humanity that completes him. That suggests to me his appreciation and love for humanity isn't complete until he meets her.
    Completes him as a person isn't the same thing as the creation of his love for humanity. Meaning he doesn't view the character of Superman as some do gooding monk or paternal figure for humanity. He obviously appreciates and loves humanity, but Lois is the embodiment of that. If his general love and appreciation of what humanity can be obviously predates Lois. She's just the distillation of that and his love for her is the manifestation of it. It's a macro/micro level thing.

  7. #1132
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    If that's the true meaning then I have no particular qualms with that statement then. Again at a base level I never had an issue with it on the grounds that I have an issue with the other statements in question because he's not trying to shift anything, he believes the partnership is the one true key and I respect that. Displaying their relationship as a partnership, as something that's conducive to inspiration both ways and the like, that's more than fine with me.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-10-2019 at 12:45 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  8. #1133
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    While I like all the fantastic elements in Superman, they work best in contrast to the Earth-based reality. A story that's all inside the Phantom Zone is good, but a story where Quex-Ul is freed from the Phantom Zone, loses his powers and memories, takes on the identity of Charlie Kweskill and holds a desk job at the Daily Planet is even better.

  9. #1134
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    This. This was exactly my main point here. I have to clarify, I'm a Lois Lane fan. She is essential to Superman's story in general and has been from the start, IMO, and I DON'T want her to be removed at all. That would be very wrong. She is his main love interest like it or not. I just HATE when writers and directors tell me that Clark/Superman breaks apart without Lois. That's a huge disservice to the character. My Superman is stronger than that. He can mourn like any of us, but he knows people die.
    I don't think that is a controversial opinion that Injustice is a disservice to Superman. It obviously is and isn't meant to be a good portrayal of Superman. And acknowledging that those type of stories are bad - Injustice and Kingdom Come aren't good Superman stories, they are stories where Superman does the wrong thing many many times over - doesn't require diminishing Lois' role.

  10. #1135
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    I like Cyborg being on the JL and dread the day nostalgia fans get their way and force him back into the dumpster fire that is the Titans franchise these days.

    Also the Titans are pretty useless because no one knows what to do with them. “We’re a family” is not a strong enough mission statement. Nightwing and Wally West are the only two Titans I care about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    It's just a philosophical opinion on my part that Superman should have normals in his stories. I want the status quo to be like Spider-Man from the 1960s and 1970s, where the stories were mainly about normal people in a big city--there were super-heroes and super-villains, too, but they weren't the majority of the population. The stuff that happened with Gwen, Captain Stacy, Flash Thompson, Mary-Jane, Robbie, J. Jonah, Harry is what kept the ongoing drama interesting--and I liked how the writers kept these sub-plots going through the run of the comic, so you were always following what happened with those characters, just as much as Spidey's web battles over the Manhattan skyline.
    Too much soap opera can also be a retraction though. It can drown the book in minor characters plot lines to the detriment of the main character. That’s what happened to the Superbooks at the end of the 20th century.

  11. #1136
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    While I like all the fantastic elements in Superman, they work best in contrast to the Earth-based reality. A story that's all inside the Phantom Zone is good, but a story where Quex-Ul is freed from the Phantom Zone, loses his powers and memories, takes on the identity of Charlie Kweskill and holds a desk job at the Daily Planet is even better.
    Personally, I enjoy both types of stories: Cosmic and Earth based.

    Superman having an adventure away from Earth in deep space sounds awesome if written well with the proper danger, action and drama.

    And when he is protecting Earth and interacting with his human friends and other friends and family is also great if the story is good. I like both, because they offer new points of view and new and exotic places to learn and wonder about. This is why I also love Star Trek.



    Yoda said,
    I don't think that is a controversial opinion that Injustice is a disservice to Superman. It obviously is and isn't meant to be a good portrayal of Superman. And acknowledging that those type of stories are bad - Injustice and Kingdom Come aren't good Superman stories, they are stories where Superman does the wrong thing many many times over - doesn't require diminishing Lois' role.
    Maybe not controversial here but in other forums it can be. Especially people who love Injustice Superman because they think he's finally cool.. and people who worship everything Zack Snyder says. He said something about Superman needing Lois more than he needs her... it shows in his movies.
    Last edited by stargazer01; 09-10-2019 at 12:57 PM.

  12. #1137
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Oh yeah forgot my nuclear hot take: The Kents are better off dead. The Kents are in fact perfect people the way casuals strawman Superman as so I don’t know why on Earth people want them around in the modern day. If Superman’s best stories involve “dealing with things he can’t just punch” (which is funny given his best selling story is just him and Doomsday beating each other to death), how the hell can those stories contain any drama when Superman can just go see wise ol’ Pa and Ma and get the answer for the right course to take? They’re better off dead where they can provide inspiring flashbacks without having a 30 something year old hero running back to Ma and Pa to cry and eat pie because Lex called him a slur.

  13. #1138
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    As cute as they were as characters post-Crisis, the coolest thing either character ever did that was anywhere close to the inspiring, touching ways they are written in remembrance in Clark's mind when they're gone, was when Jonathan saved Clark's soul before Reign. And Jonathan was categorically dead to achieve that, ironically.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  14. #1139
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Oh yeah forgot my nuclear hot take: The Kents are better off dead. The Kents are in fact perfect people the way casuals strawman Superman as so I don’t know why on Earth people want them around in the modern day. If Superman’s best stories involve “dealing with things he can’t just punch” (which is funny given his best selling story is just him and Doomsday beating each other to death), how the hell can those stories contain any drama when Superman can just go see wise ol’ Pa and Ma and get the answer for the right course to take? They’re better off dead where they can provide inspiring flashbacks without having a 30 something year old hero running back to Ma and Pa to cry and eat pie because Lex called him a slur.
    I like Pa to die soon in Clark's career as Superman. Ma can be alive much longer until she meets her grandchild. The Kents are important when Clark is young and learning to be careful with his powers. They raise him and teach him great values. After that, I don't mind Ma being alive because it provides nice and heartfelt family memories and moments. Even Superman needs a family to talk to and have quality time.

  15. #1140
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    Maybe not controversial here but in other forums it can be. Especially people who love Injustice Superman because they think he's finally cool.. and people who worship everything Zack Snyder says. He said something about Superman needing Lois more than he needs her... it shows in his movies.
    This is that Snyder quote. So in context it's a little more nuanced than that and not that far off from what I'm saying.

    "She [Lois] doesn’t need Superman or Clark, the fact that Clark likes her makes him smarter, cooler, better! The more badass Lois is, the better Clark gets. They are an amazing duo who needs each other, but Clark needs her more. You need Lois for a better story."
    I don't find Snyder to be the most careful or clear on expressing his thoughts, nor do I agree with his POV on a lot of stuff. But I think what he's trying to say is that in universe Lois Lane is an independent person. And the fact that Clark sees that and finds it attractive makes him a better person generally. Meaning, someone who appreciates those traits is a smarter, better, cooler person. The "Clark needs her more" bit I read as going towards the needs of the stories. Admittedly, it's a muddled thought all around.

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