Which of DC's Black Characters Has the Most Potential to Achieve Trinity Status?

[SecretWarrior]

The OG Beyblade was almost as popular as Yu-Gi-Oh as Pokemon. That being said, the only similarity between Yu-Gi-Oh and Beyblade are tournament arcs.

The whole point of Beyblade is winning the tournament with your team,while in Yu-Gi-Oh the tournaments are usually used to introduce allies and potential enemies for when the real plot kicks in.

Both were toy tournament stories with magic spirits involved. Beyblade was never as popular. Never had a film in theaters for example.

The question keeps getting answered--probably about 4 times by now--but you literally just respond with the exact same question every time.

Space Police is a big freaking trope:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpacePolice

There are a gazillion types stories you can tell within that set up. I almost don't think this even deserves an answer because it's common sense. If the Darkstars are too similar to Green Lanterns for you, a writer can simply do something within the story to differentiate them more. No, I'm not going to bother brainstorming up specific stories and world building elements. Sorry. Besides, you would probably just respond with the same question regardless.

You still haven't answered the question. You just punt by saying someone will come up with something, which is intellectually dishonest. You can't differentiate it from what's been done before. You would take John and ruin his financial viability by dissociating him with the brand and mythology he's recognized with for in the mainstream a Z-list team that failed to take off in the 90s. People don't just follow the character, they follow the brand-- See Hal Jordan Specter. How many Superman clones are on the Justice League's core team? How many Flash clones? What makes you think cloning GL will make the clone relevant? Hasn't worked for Jaime Reyes. Hasn't worked for Midnighter. Hasn't worked for Night Owl. Hasn't worked for Jesse Quick. Etc. Etc. Etc. At least when Marvel and DC ripoff each other, you see the archetypes in different contexts or against different sets of characters. You're talking about ripping off a property and placing it in the same universe without an original role to play... (－‸ლ)

You also want to call a black guy "Darkstar" lol

If you believe in the Darkstar concept so much, why not try it with an original character and see how that goes?

[SecretWarrior]

What you are doing is what too many studios and folks have done to many creators. Why do I need you when I have (blank)? argument.

Quick example-Anthony Montgomery (Star Trek Enterprise) did a book called Miles Away. A book about a black kid BORN with alien powers. Keyword BORN with. He got a chance to pitch his book to Cartoon Network. This is what he got told-"we already got that idea. It's called Ben 10."
The ONLY thing they had in common was a teen/preteen boy as the lead. Ben needs a watch to change into creatures. Miles does not.

What makes them different? STORY TELLING.




Digimon is still going strong with a new movie coming in 2020 in Japan. It only aired overseas now and very popular in the UK.
Medabots-tv wise has stopped but they are still making games.




Because EGO plays a part.

Erik Larson is doing what many want to do-his own book that is heading to 250 issues-with a lead who got replaced by his son. His son got married and had kids. He has his own EVERYTHING. Also had a tv show.
Look at Spawn. same question.
Look at Static. Bitter Root. Black. Goldie Vance.
Look at all the creator owned stuff that has done MORE than Marvel & DC.
Now ask normal folks do they know who they are? Most don't know. A LOT of folks don't know Static was a comic first or OWNED by black men.

Folks want that name status. How do you get it? Do a definitive run with someone.

When someone says Black Panther or Cap Marvel-whose runs get mentioned? Priest & Kelly Sue Deconnick.
Or Miles & Khan? G Willow or Bendis.
Or Hal Jordan? JOHNS
Because you don't know whose run will spark something. See Priest's Panther. Heck see his Deathstroke.
There is a reason folks long for Priest's Panther over Coates.

And to be HONEST-you don't have to invest your ideas. Do like Hickman use what is already there.

Lets take Duke Thomas.
DC has enough in limbo villains to give him a rouge gallery. Crimesmith, Bork, Dreamslayer, Kid Amazo and so on. Guys with no links to anyone else.

Miles away proves the point. No one knows that property is outside of a very small niche. I could ask my 9 year old cousin (target demo) about it, and he would have no clue. I had to google it. If it were as hot an idea as Ben 10, it would've taken off in the same way or at least come close. It's not even Generator Rex or Secret Saturdays.

Digimon and Medabots are not as popular as Pokemon. When Pokemon was big, it was referenced on the news and on media like The West Wing. It has a blockbuster "live action" film. Digimon isn't that level.

You named a bunch of 3rd party comics that are creator owned. The motivation there is personal profit.

You also named Static, Miles, and Kamala, who were created for social justice reasons, according to their creators themselves.

Besides personal profit, nostalgia, or social justice, there's no reason to dedicate your best story-telling ideas to preexisting characters.

[Vampire Savior]

Both were toy tournament stories with magic spirits involved. Beyblade was never as popular. Never had a film in theaters for example.

You still haven't answered the question. You just punt by saying someone will come up with something, which is intellectually dishonest.

So, what? You want me to sit here and brainstorm an entire story paradigm FOR YOU? To answer your question? Do you want me to build you a house or dig a pool for you while I'm at it? I'm not going to do that, especially when you're going to respond with the exact same question. I know this, because a poster literally came up with a story paradigm a few posts up, and here you are spouting off the same question again. And yes, a writer can come up with something. That's what they're paid for. Okay, I have an idea. If you pay me an amount that satisfies me, THEN I'll take the time and effort to do something I otherwise would have no interest in doing myself and come up with an entire story paradigm and foundational world building elements for Darkstars to answer your question. You can PM me if interested and I can give you a link to my paypal account.

You can't differentiate it from what's been done before. You would take John and ruin his financial viability by dissociating him with the brand and mythology he's recognized with for in the mainstream a Z-list team that failed to take off in the 90s.

John Sewart's financial viability is already very questionable by being the fourth Green Lantern--and not a particularly important one--in Hal Jordan's franchise.

What makes you think cloning GL will make the clone relevant?

Read what you just wrote here very carefully, because...guess what? All John Stewart is, is a clone of Hal Jordan with brown skin and a small fraction of the development Hal Jordan has.

Hasn't worked for Jaime Reyes. Hasn't worked for Midnighter. Hasn't worked for Night Owl. Hasn't worked for Jesse Quick. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Hasn't worked for John Stewart, the clone of the white Green Lantern who will never not be that as long as he's a GL.

You also want to call a black guy "Darkstar" lol

You also want DC to bulldoze their franchise, remove the character that has been the lead of it for 50 years or something, replace him with a black clone and give everything that character has built to a black clone...because...social justice, your personal fanboyism, and because you prefer the color of John Stewart's skin. That is even more lol. Furthermore, it's not "justice," it's actually pretty effed up.

And guess what. IT WOULD NOT EVEN WORK! You're fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

[Midnight_v]

You also want DC to bulldoze their franchise, remove the character that has been the lead of it for 50 years or something, replace him with a black clone and give everything that character has built to a black clone...because...social justice, your personal fanboyism, and because you prefer the color of John Stewart's skin. That is even more lol. Furthermore, it's not "justice," it's actually pretty effed up.

And guess what. IT WOULD NOT EVEN WORK! You're fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

You also want to call a black guy "Darkstar" lol

And to be HONEST-you don't have to invest your ideas. Do like Hickman use what is already there

I was giving an example. and you guys have been caught on a tanget with the whole Darkstars thing.

1. I was trying to illustrate that it maybe possible "Do what hickman does" and use whats there already.

FOR EXAMPLE: DarkStars. A book that already has a history to draw on and .... moreover.


2. You also want to call a black guy.... "X".... I'm no hypocrite... I look at Vixen the same way. So while it think its a pretty stupid stretch... I accept that my people have been
called "Darkies" in the past so... I'll call it a push. Except...

John stweart was already a part of darkstars before and it never came up. Maybe because was a team. IDK. Oh well... In my opinion, People would read a new book about a kid who gets a dark star suit.
Did you know Kate Spencer Manhunter is wearing one of those suits? I just caught that in the wiki. Oh well... read the whole run of darkstars. I liked it alot, and

The point I was trying to make was:

"You get out of the shadow of the Green Lantern franchise, by telling different stories from what they're telling." Can you have similar pinings and overtones? Yeah. Can you have a similiart powersource. Yeah.
Can your character play the great game of the Cosmos with the space gods as well? Yes.
But some have a certain thing in mind they want to work and don't want to work and thats it. *Shrug*

3. I agree with you Vampire Savior... it gets pretty F'ed up.
Everyone wants what they want, but its a LOT easier to say "No, No, that'll never work" than giving examples or coming up with ideas that do work.

I know that right now if Darkstars or.... Stoneyard.... Or Lady Underground, Or rush and silence or Maybe even Mohammed X (name not withstanding as a thing of the 90's.)

Some people are going to pick it up "JUST cause there a black face there" / Some people the opposite. . . but just like with Mr.Miracle, word of mouth about a good book is going to convince SOME people to pick things up they wouldn't.

As far as those who wouldn't EVER.... they're not who you consider when putting a book on the shelf.

So for there to be a "black member of the trinity" the book needs 3 things.

1. To Exist.
2. To be well written.
and what no one talks about:
3. To be tied to a great concept.

Alex Ross captured it with: Peace on earth, War on crime, Spirit of truth... then he double back with "POWER OF HOPE" for Shazam that isn't a trinity member but is rep'ing something grander.
So stop fighting about petty details and decide if anyone can measure up. Most DC heroes fall pretty short.

Okay. I'm headed out.

[Sodam Yat]

I honestly don't really understand about this argument about John Stewart should be a Darkstar. The book's sales were lackluster. People recognizes John as a Green Lantern first and foremost and I don't see that ever going away. If John was a Darkstar, I doubt he would be at the top of the polls here. The same for Hal Jordan, where people see him more as a Green Lantern than a Spectre when Kyle took over. And during the Kyle Rayner era, Alan got rid of his ring and became the Sentinel, just because he was in Kyle's Green Lantern territory at the time. The fact is that these characters are Green Lanterns and I don't see that ever changing or should be changed. If they ever become something else, I doubt it will be ever permanent.

[king81992]

The only character who should take the Darkstar name is Donna Troy. The name matches her costume and she needs something other than 'eternal identity crisis' /being a pawn of Batman Who Laughs.

[SecretWarrior]

So, what? You want me to sit here and brainstorm an entire story paradigm FOR YOU? To answer your question? Do you want me to build you a house or dig a pool for you while I'm at it? I'm not going to do that, especially when you're going to respond with the exact same question. I know this, because a poster literally came up with a story paradigm a few posts up, and here you are spouting off the same question again. And yes, a writer can come up with something. That's what they're paid for. Okay, I have an idea. If you pay me an amount that satisfies me, THEN I'll take the time and effort to do something I otherwise would have no interest in doing myself and come up with an entire story paradigm and foundational world building elements for Darkstars to answer your question. You can PM me if interested and I can give you a link to my paypal account.



John Sewart's financial viability is already very questionable by being the fourth Green Lantern--and not a particularly important one--in Hal Jordan's franchise.



Read what you just wrote here very carefully, because...guess what? All John Stewart is, is a clone of Hal Jordan with brown skin and a small fraction of the development Hal Jordan has.



Hasn't worked for John Stewart, the clone of the white Green Lantern who will never not be that as long as he's a GL.



You also want DC to bulldoze their franchise, remove the character that has been the lead of it for 50 years or something, replace him with a black clone and give everything that character has built to a black clone...because...social justice, your personal fanboyism, and because you prefer the color of John Stewart's skin. That is even more lol. Furthermore, it's not "justice," it's actually pretty effed up.

And guess what. IT WOULD NOT EVEN WORK! You're fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

Lol, being the center of the GL franchise has worked for John Stewart-- Ever hear of the DCAU? Also, taking over a franchise worked okay for Wally West, Scott Lang, Carol Danvers, and Hal Jordan. Don't see why it couldn't work for John Stewart. Despite not being the focus of many stories, he still moving votes and merchandise. He certainly appears to be DC's most licensed black character when it comes to figures and statues. John's got a unique background and personality. If he didn't, why would you call him your favorite black character? And if he weren't liked or a big deal to the fanbase, why couldn't DC kill him off without any backlash like they tried to get Fialkov to?

And anyone rubbing two brain cells together can see that Darkstars can't do anything unique as a property. If someone has shared an original Darkstars idea on this thread, please provide a quote.

Short term thinking needs to end. This is an infinite game, not a finite one. If DC wants to remain relevant creatively and financially in a browning America, they're going to need to find a way to stop treating their characters of color as second class citizens. That includes giving them the same status a groups like the Trinity and the Justice League Founders. That's what this thread is about. See the title. No one is forcing you to post.

[SecretWarrior]

The only character who should take the Darkstar name is Donna Troy. The name matches her costume and she needs something other than 'eternal identity crisis' /being a pawn of Batman Who Laughs.

This would work. Nightwing got his codename from a Superman story but is part of the Batman franchise. I don't see why Donna can't do something similar. When the time comes, I think Kaldur should go by Devil Ray-- Black Manta's name in the DCAU.

[Midnight_v]

I honestly don't really understand about this argument about John Stewart should be a Darkstar. The book's sales were lackluster. People recognizes John as a Green Lantern first and foremost and I don't see that ever going away. If John was a Darkstar, I doubt he would be at the top of the polls here. The same for Hal Jordan, where people see him more as a Green Lantern than a Spectre when Kyle took over. And during the Kyle Rayner era, Alan got rid of his ring and became the Sentinel, just because he was in Kyle's Green Lantern territory at the time. The fact is that these characters are Green Lanterns and I don't see that ever changing or should be changed. If they ever become something else, I doubt it will be ever permanent.

You'd have to go back the last couple pages but here. . . but just for you...

The Darkstars will never take off as an independent concept. Creatively, what role would they play that Green Lanterns aren't currently?

and I said:

Seriously?
Okay...
I'm not even a writer, but there's LOADS of stories to tell... but even though I think "social justice" as an overarching concept can be posion for a new property instead of just "Heroism" since America is split right
... these guys are bread and butter for that sort of thing.

"Bring Down the Empire."

From the perspective of The Darkstars and probably many others The GUARDIANS of OA (which non-colonized peoples don't call them "of the universe) and by extension the Green Lantern Corps.
They're just practicing what amounts to basic "American Imperialism". They literally send a "The most powerful weapon in the universe" (that they have control) of to your world... normally before you have any superhuman representation
and say to burgeoning planets "Aliens are Real. These are the rules"

Every Darkstar is made aware of that straight out, that they and "MOST" of the universe is under the purview of an army of intergalactic conquerors. Now they aren't told that the Controllers wanted that job for themselves and lost.
They're told that green lanterns are the police arm of a totalitarian overstate. And in many perspectives they're Frankly not wrong. All you have to do is point out how "Sinestro was set loose on his people"; "Hal Jordan?" mass murderer; they oppress societies natural rulers and promote their own puppet dictators. They interceded conflicts they're not wanted or needed in: Rann/Thangar war.
Such control they have that they can and have placed embargoes and quarantines on whole star sectors and several times entire galaxies.
Your very earth is colonized by multiple members of these self appointed, "Liberators"... "Space Police" ... but they have arrived her with the intent to bring you world under they OAN sway.

Your goal is simple become a hero to your people. Speak Truth to power in your every action. Be an ambassador to your earth. Become an Icon for your world
Show them that there's something greater that kneeling to distant masters with uncaring eyes. Many fear the power of distant light, you?
You shall be our Dark Star.

Hand the suit to seemingly random black kid the summer after high school. We buff the suit. It has VAST reserves of intergalactic knowledge so he does what any good guy would do.
Starts using it to help people. Like seriously help people.
Dude starts turning the WORST city in the country into a paradise. Like Detroit City wakanda. First thing he does is purify the water and treats it with something that makes people more resistant to Diabetes and High Blood Pressure, curing them of the addiction to salt and sugar.

What gets him noticed by the heroes is when he teaches people how to get their homes off the power grid, and how the local metas have started following him.
This pisses off the cops.... this pisses off the establishment... this agitates those power interests and the heroes greatly. *but the first people that interrupt are hired meta-goons.

The Goal of the controllers is that they know how crucial earth is in the grand scheme of things. They NEED a representative there. Don't get me wrong they're doing it on OTHER worlds too, but the deal is they're choosing good hearted
Idealists to make changes to the world and expose the hypocrisy of whoever is ruling everything.
.... and I'm just spit balling here. I wrote that in 10 mins. Come up with a name, and personality for the character. Make him likable and enviable. Think of (if you have one) you're popular younger brother.
He's cool, he's fun, but he's never really been one to vibe with the rigidness of school... even though he graduated high cause of tests. Responsible without begin a tyrant. A creative soul. A good Soul.
Then you give him a suit that lets him "grant wishes" technologically and whats he gonna do but "HELP PEOPLE".

Then you realize the grim truth of things.... you're not ALLOWED to help people. You're not SUPPOSED to uplift your people. ESPECIALLY not for "Free".

and hes got the best weed ever. "No charge". Oh yeah. NOT gonna be allowed.

And thats all it takes. A little creativity, a little thought, a little caring... a little effort.
Would people read it? I don't know
What I DO KNOW is .... You can take a concept like darkstars and make it great. If you even have the rudimentary elements of a story you want to tell.
and a fight scene. a 20 page fight scene.

I'd actually do an issue like.... a split screen

All the stuff I talked about: All the good things he does.
------------------------------------Page break
Brutal fight scene that happens when they try to pull a "black wallstreet" on this guys section of the city.

Edit: Something that always bugged me was how the heroes have to means to make the world better, but superman keeps the cure for cancer in the fortress of solitude, and batman could have just
helped Mr.Freeze unthaw his wife (pre retcon). I thought that as a kid. As a grown up I realize things like that would be actively resisted.

The argument wasn't even about John Stewart. It was about a new character becoming a darkstar set on earth doing "Actual Change" and the people that would ally against him for doing trying something like that.

Personally I'd read it but let me tell you something hilarious to me...

The only character who should take the Darkstar name is Donna Troy

Got it.
"No black legacy characters... EVER"
I mean you get to the point where we just have to ignore some of the fringe voices and write a good story.

[Aahz]

Lol, being the center of the GL franchise has worked for John Stewart-- Ever hear of the DCAU?

Whet works for catoons doesn't necessary work in comics, where you have a lot of long term readers.
If you put John in a cartoon you could just give stuff like villains, supporting charactrs or even entire storylines of the other Lanters to him, an most of the viewers wouldn't realise (like for example the CW-Supergirl Show keeps ripping of Superman Storylines). In comics that doesn't work.

Also, taking over a franchise worked okay for Wally West, Scott Lang, Carol Danvers, and Hal Jordan.

But they didn't have that much to go up again, a lot of the most popular Green Lantern Stories were afaik published after Hal's return to the mantle, which makes it harder to replace him now, then back then when they made Kyle the main Green Lantern.

[Vampire Savior]

John Stewart was the Green Lantern on a cartoon show that did not rely on him lead it each and every episode. There were even holes in the Justice League cartoon show regarding John Stewart that were never addressed, because the character lacks a firm foundation, because he is, at his core, an underdeveloped clone of Hal Jordan who was not really designed to have a foundation, and he never developed much of one as the years went on.

For example, what was John's relationship to Star Sapphire on the show? Who was Star Sapphire!? Considering she appeared numerous times, it seems like we should have gotten at least some idea of who she was, like we did with Cheetah and Grundy. The show left her underdeveloped partially because Star Sapphire is traditionally not John Stewart's villain. Neither is Sinestro. Indeed, John Stewart really does not have any villains he has a connection to, aside from perhaps Appa Ali Apsa, but that is REALLY obscure. So, even John Stewart's presence as Green Lantern in the DCAU raises questionable holes because the character wasn't properly equipped to fill them. He has to take from Hal Jordan and then try to hand wave it away.

When we look at the character this way, I can't imagine him reaching trinity status. He's an underdeveloped clone of a more popular character, and it's very unlikely he will leap frog over that character indefinitely. The prestige of the Green Lantern namesake, which, granted, is the main thing John has going for him, is owed mostly to Hal Jordan.

[king81992]

You'd have to go back the last couple pages but here. . . but just for you...



and I said:



The argument wasn't even about John Stewart. It was about a new character becoming a darkstar set on earth doing "Actual Change" and the people that would ally against him for doing trying something like that.

Personally I'd read it but let me tell you something hilarious to me...

Got it.
"No black legacy characters... EVER"
I mean you get to the point where we just have to ignore some of the fringe voices and write a good story.

I don't understand why you think that Donna Troy taking the name Darkstar means 'no black legacy characters....EVER'. I do agree with your point about ignoring fringe voices and writing a good story.

[SecretWarrior]

You'd have to go back the last couple pages but here. . . but just for you...



and I said:



The argument wasn't even about John Stewart. It was about a new character becoming a darkstar set on earth doing "Actual Change" and the people that would ally against him for doing trying something like that.

Personally I'd read it but let me tell you something hilarious to me...

Got it.
"No black legacy characters... EVER"
I mean you get to the point where we just have to ignore some of the fringe voices and write a good story.

You didn't provide an original idea-- You re-purposed a bunch of Green Lantern ideas, proving my point. If there's a good intergalactic cop story someone pitches, it'll either become a GL story or crash and burn like the Omega Men or the Darkstars or like Adam Strange. How many intergalactic police forces does DC need? More generally, what hasn't already been covered by GL, the Reach, and the Nova Corps?

And leaping to no black legacy characters? How did you get that? You wanna call a black character Darkstar, go ahead. If he's the company's black paragon, even better. Let's see how that plays.

[SecretWarrior]

John Stewart was the Green Lantern on a cartoon show that did not rely on him lead it each and every episode. There were even holes in the Justice League cartoon show regarding John Stewart that were never addressed, because the character lacks a firm foundation, because he is, at his core, an underdeveloped clone of Hal Jordan who was not really designed to have a foundation, and he never developed much of one as the years went on.

For example, what was John's relationship to Star Sapphire on the show? Who was Star Sapphire!? Considering she appeared numerous times, it seems like we should have gotten at least some idea of who she was, like we did with Cheetah and Grundy. The show left her underdeveloped partially because Star Sapphire is traditionally not John Stewart's villain. Neither is Sinestro. Indeed, John Stewart really does not have any villains he has a connection to, aside from perhaps Appa Ali Apsa, but that is REALLY obscure. So, even John Stewart's presence as Green Lantern in the DCAU raises questionable holes because the character wasn't properly equipped to fill them. He has to take from Hal Jordan and then try to hand wave it away.

When we look at the character this way, I can't imagine him reaching trinity status. He's an underdeveloped clone of a more popular character, and it's very unlikely he will leap frog over that character indefinitely. The prestige of the Green Lantern namesake, which, granted, is the main thing John has going for him, is owed mostly to Hal Jordan.

No, his history was very well defined, as was his relationship with Sinestro: https://dcau.fandom.com/wiki/John_Stewart

Sinestro betrays Corps and fails. Attempts to steal John's power as a result and fails. Continues to seek power by working with the Legion and fails.

Just because Star Sapphire didn't have an origin, doesn't mean anything. You could say the same about several villains of all mythologies on Justice League and JLU. What was Flash's reationship history with Captain Cold or Captain Boomerang? John doesn't need to have a specific relationship with Star Sapphire outside of brainwashed villain. It's an alternate timeline in which John has a archvillain relationship with Shadow Thief and Despero and a close friendship with Metamorpho. If particular relationships were important to the stories the writers wanted to tell, they would've been addressed like Kanjar Ro. If the show were about GL alone, I'm sure it would've been written differently. It's not like DCAU Kyle Rayner had stronger relationships.

Wizard Magazine has already demonstrated it can be:



Again, taking over a franchise worked okay for Wally West, Scott Lang, Carol Danvers, and Hal Jordan. Don't see why it couldn't work for John Stewart. Despite him being underdeveloped in the comics, he out polls every GL character outside of Hal despite all of their development. Willing to bet he could out-poll Hal too if he were developed. Who was Miles before Bendis? Who was Kamala before Wilson? Who was BP before Priest? Van Jensen spent some time on his development before his stories were derailed. Outsold every other GL title besides the mainbook. Would be willing to bet he'd be the highest of the bunch if the book were just titled Green Lantern.

You already said you have no original ideas and would've voted for "none" if you saw the option. I think we know where you stand by this point. Lotta love for your "favorite" black character.

John's still in 1st and the only character significantly above "none."

[skyvolt2000]

But they didn't have that much to go up again, a lot of the most popular Green Lantern Stories were afaik published after Hal's return to the mantle, which makes it harder to replace him now, then back then when they made Kyle the main Green Lantern.

Well remember WHO was the writer before Kyle took over. He's the main reason John Stewart's Green Lantern Mosaic and a TON of 90s Justice League stuff is not in trade.