Damian Wayne: Robin Appreciation 2020

[Digifiend]

Then why Bendis give him new identity name, when in the end no one will use it? That's the part I don't understand about Tim's Bendis.

The original plan was for Tim to be called Drake. Fans didn't like it - my problem personally is the fact it kind of gives away his secret identity, since it's actually his surname! Anyway, Bendis responded by having Steph dislike Tim's changes. Prompting him to change back to Robin again. I won't be surprised if this gets resolved in that issue focusing on those two.

I think Tim didn't really want stop being Robin, (in this new universe he never was, is this right?),

Tim was never Robin in New 52, but his original origin was restored in Tynion's Detective Comics in Rebirth, so now, he was.

[godisawesome]

The point I was trying to make is that part of Tim's inability to move and the hate/bias against Damian as Robin is due to the writers and fans.

If I can offer my personal nuanced view of it as a Tim fan... I actually don’t have any problem at all with Damian as Robin, and actually still want him in the role, and I don’t think I’m alone in that. In fact, I really *really* want more stories where Tim’s a graduated a Robin who still doesn’t really get along with Damian, and Damian doesn’t get along with him, but where they’ve clearly moved on to more vitriolic brothers than adversaries or literary rivals.

I think the problem is that the “Red Robin” role for Tim got poisoned and sabotaged by the New 52, making a perhaps shakey but until-then-successful transition and placement in the family go from a pretty good state of affairs to a somewhat untenable one, and one that no one, not even Tynion, seems to really know how to fix.

Red Robin before Flashpoint = a Nightwing-style solo character with his own supporting cast and mission statement, and mostly just evolving from the semi-autonomous role he had before he put on the cowl becoming a truly autonomous one... which actually worked out great in conjunction with Damian as Dick’s partner - they had different functions that fit their characterizations better.

Red Robin after Flashpoint = an attempt to make Tim an ensemble-exclusive character, but by largely killing off the evolution he had beforehand to get there and losing track of his voice. This soured most people on the identity change, and the mistake made with Rebirth was trying to renounce the change entirely, to the point where the only thing acknowledging it was a double R on his Robin suit... but not doing so by addressing his relationship vis-a-vie Damian.

*That*, intentionally or not, emphasized the old fandom rivalry people had when Damian first showed up, and seemed to make them alternatives to each other from very different philosophies about how to write Robin. Then Bendis went in and dropped even the bare pretense for a few issues and just christened him Robin again... and then promptly chose both a dubious new name to elevate him to and a half-baked explanation (“Drake” really would have seemed more believable if it were a dragon reference, and not an attempt to make Ducks badass without first calling them Donald.)

...I still kind of feel like if you slapped a cowl on Tim again, called him Red Robin, embraced the idea he’s got to be 18 at this point, that would still be a more workable solution than what they’ve been doing so far, and would immediately lend itself much more to Gates of Gotham-style hijinks between Tim and Damian, rather than someone trying to make two boys with nearly identical costumes look vaguely different.

[dietrich]

If I can offer my personal nuanced view of it as a Tim fan... I actually don’t have any problem at all with Damian as Robin, and actually still want him in the role, and I don’t think I’m alone in that. In fact, I really *really* want more stories where Tim’s a graduated a Robin who still doesn’t really get along with Damian, and Damian doesn’t get along with him, but where they’ve clearly moved on to more vitriolic brothers than adversaries or literary rivals.

I think the problem is that the “Red Robin” role for Tim got poisoned and sabotaged by the New 52, making a perhaps shakey but until-then-successful transition and placement in the family go from a pretty good state of affairs to a somewhat untenable one, and one that no one, not even Tynion, seems to really know how to fix.

Red Robin before Flashpoint = a Nightwing-style solo character with his own supporting cast and mission statement, and mostly just evolving from the semi-autonomous role he had before he put on the cowl becoming a truly autonomous one... which actually worked out great in conjunction with Damian as Dick’s partner - they had different functions that fit their characterizations better.

Red Robin after Flashpoint = an attempt to make Tim an ensemble-exclusive character, but by largely killing off the evolution he had beforehand to get there and losing track of his voice. This soured most people on the identity change, and the mistake made with Rebirth was trying to renounce the change entirely, to the point where the only thing acknowledging it was a double R on his Robin suit... but not doing so by addressing his relationship vis-a-vie Damian.

*That*, intentionally or not, emphasized the old fandom rivalry people had when Damian first showed up, and seemed to make them alternatives to each other from very different philosophies about how to write Robin. Then Bendis went in and dropped even the bare pretense for a few issues and just christened him Robin again... and then promptly chose both a dubious new name to elevate him to and a half-baked explanation (“Drake” really would have seemed more believable if it were a dragon reference, and not an attempt to make Ducks badass without first calling them Donald.)

...I still kind of feel like if you slapped a cowl on Tim again, called him Red Robin, embraced the idea he’s got to be 18 at this point, that would still be a more workable solution than what they’ve been doing so far, and would immediately lend itself much more to Gates of Gotham-style hijinks between Tim and Damian, rather than someone trying to make two boys with nearly identical costumes look vaguely different.

i honestly don't know what the problem with Red Robin was.
So what if the name reminded Americans of something else? It clearly didn't hold Tim back since he had success with the name. The red Robin solo was did well

The RR solo was imo peak Tim. I enjoyed him the most in that title.

I don't know why bendis decided to change it. [Drake is actually a really badass name if it wasn't Tim's real name]

[Rebeca Armus]

*That*, intentionally or not, emphasized the old fandom rivalry people had when Damian first showed up, and seemed to make them alternatives to each other from very different philosophies about how to write Robin. Then Bendis went in and dropped even the bare pretense for a few issues and just christened him Robin again... and then promptly chose both a dubious new name to elevate him to and a half-baked explanation (“Drake” really would have seemed more believable if it were a dragon reference, and not an attempt to make Ducks badass without first calling them Donald.)

...I still kind of feel like if you slapped a cowl on Tim again, called him Red Robin, embraced the idea he’s got to be 18 at this point, that would still be a more workable solution than what they’ve been doing so far, and would immediately lend itself much more to Gates of Gotham-style hijinks between Tim and Damian, rather than someone trying to make two boys with nearly identical costumes look vaguely different.

But I think comics always take animals and make them cool, even a "Robin" is not cool.
I think anything can become a amazing result. Like a superman vs batman movie has all potention for be something amazing, but it was not well done; and Shazam have this ridiculous chlothes that was great in movie because the way the script was made.
I think Tim Drake being Drake is not the problem, but how it was done.
I don't know too much about Tim, this reboots make it even hard to understand. But I want to listen your opinion, do you think would be best for Tim became a Drake (related with Dragons)? If you could decid anything for Tim next reboot how would it be?
...
I really liked his Drake outfit, there is not many heroes using brown.

[godisawesome]

i honestly don't know what the problem with Red Robin was.
So what if the name reminded Americans of something else? It clearly didn't hold Tim back since he had success with the name. The red Robin solo was did well

The RR solo was imo peak Tim. I enjoyed him the most in that title.

I don't know why bendis decided to change it. [Drake is actually a really badass name if it wasn't Tim's real name]

I think the “problem” with the Red Robin identity in the New 52 was that it became part of the “damaged goods” of that era for Tim, then in Rebirth it became somewhat superfluous due to the approach of his redesign.

New 52 Red Robin was unnecessarily reset so that his previous adventures couldn’t have happened (both due to fear of acknowledging the passage time of time and possibly because he was still the character most connected to the banished Stephanie Brown), and his origin was totally redone for the worst. There are very few Tim Drake fans who have good overall feelings about the entire era in which Lobdell and Booth’s take on the character reigned Supreme.

Rebirth Tim Drake, on the other hand, was put in a context where arguably he could have been Red Robin in the Pre-Flashpoint manner all the way... but in spite of Tynion reintroducing his old origin, there was still very little continuity with those runs, particularly his Red Robin solo, and he was dressed up as Robin in every way. I think his Rebirth story can show how much impact costume can have on a character’s perception: it made it feel like Tim most definitely *hadn’t* moved on from a Robin at all, so why was he called Red Robin instead?

It’s be a bit like if the New 52 had put Damian back in a crazy new costume that was infected with the 90’s in a bad way, then written very badly for a few years (as in, he becomes the victim of badly written sexual assault, has his last changed drastically for no good reason, and is written somewhat robotically), then in Rebirth got stuck back into the white jumpsuit he first showed up in, and wasn’t referred to as a Robin that much,

Damian largely got through the New 52 change okay. Weirdly, about the biggest issue he had from it was tied to Stephanie Brown too; because DC threw a hissy fit over Morrison wanting Stephanie Brown in his Spyral academy issue, Damian’s next chapter in Morrison’s story got delayed for a few months.

Personally, I think Damian could have used more crossovers with Steph, whether as Batgirl or Spoiler just because her portrayal as the compassionate but put-upon babysitter helped emphasize both Damian’s beyond-his-years badassness but tempered by how cruelly deprived his childhood had been.

Imagine Spoiler being the babysitter character for Jon and Damian at the same time!

But I think comics always take animals and make them cool, even a "Robin" is not cool.
I think anything can become a amazing result. Like a superman vs batman movie has all potention for be something amazing, but it was not well done; and Shazam have this ridiculous chlothes that was great in movie because the way the script was made.
I think Tim Drake being Drake is not the problem, but how it was done.
I don't know too much about Tim, this reboots make it even hard to understand. But I want to listen your opinion, do you think would be best for Tim became a Drake (related with Dragons)? If you could decid anything for Tim next reboot how would it be?
...
I really liked his Drake outfit, there is not many heroes using brown.

To be blunt, if it was me? I’d just have Tim be Red Robin, put him back in the Marcus To costume, and declare his old solos had happened, and just vaguely address the inconsistencies that may arise afterwards so that if someone liked something from the New 52 or a Rebirth, they could use it, and we’d just mutter quietly about whether or not it all fits together or not.

However... if we wanted to use Drake as a new ID, I’d have it happen as part of him constructing a Red-X-from-Teen-Titans-style villainous ID he uses to infiltrate one of the assassin guilds he was running into in his Red Robin solo, using the dragon motif after some inspiration from Beowulf or Tolkien when someone points out his names more legendary connotations... and then decide he likes having the ID in his back pocket, and use it and Red Robin simultaneously for a while, while having him deal with *some* kind of personal life issue: whether that would be as “Tim Wayne” as one of Bruce’s adopted sons (in which case the Drake identity might have some psychological connotations of him trying to maintain that name somehow) running Neon Knights as in the Red Robin solo, or in talking to his now living parents every night and facing issues form being paranoid about them being hurt.

[Rebeca Armus]

To be blunt, if it was me? I’d just have Tim be Red Robin, put him back in the Marcus To costume, and declare his old solos had happened, and just vaguely address the inconsistencies that may arise afterwards so that if someone liked something from the New 52 or a Rebirth, they could use it, and we’d just mutter quietly about whether or not it all fits together or not.

However... if we wanted to use Drake as a new ID, I’d have it happen as part of him constructing a Red-X-from-Teen-Titans-style villainous ID he uses to infiltrate one of the assassin guilds he was running into in his Red Robin solo, using the dragon motif after some inspiration from Beowulf or Tolkien when someone points out his names more legendary connotations... and then decide he likes having the ID in his back pocket, and use it and Red Robin simultaneously for a while, while having him deal with *some* kind of personal life issue: whether that would be as “Tim Wayne” as one of Bruce’s adopted sons (in which case the Drake identity might have some psychological connotations of him trying to maintain that name somehow) running Neon Knights as in the Red Robin solo, or in talking to his now living parents every night and facing issues form being paranoid about them being hurt.

It would be very iterestanting, I don't like Tim so much, but this is balanced in Hero, spy, family, teenagers problem very well, this is double good, because we be like "will his hero ID be dicoverd? Will His Villainous ID be discored by heroes? Will his Heroes ID be discovered by villanous?" Love Red X, worked well.
AAAAND when some one discover Drake WAS Drake would be terrific.

[Eckri]

New to this thread but I'd like to give my thought about new aliases for Tim and Damian.
For Tim I think the alias of Drake could still work, entirely depending on the writers.

For Damian, how about the alias Rokh? The mythological bird from Arabian mythology. It suits his heritage, plus didn't Dick originally got his Nightwing alias from Superman, which came from Kryptonian myths (correct me if I'm wrong), giving Dick and Damian something in common with two names coming from mythology. And Damian would still have a bird themed name.

[godisawesome]

New to this thread but I'd like to give my thought about new aliases for Tim and Damian.
For Tim I think the alias of Drake could still work, entirely depending on the writers.

For Damian, how about the alias Rokh? The mythological bird from Arabian mythology. It suits his heritage, plus didn't Dick originally got his Nightwing alias from Superman, which came from Kryptonian myths (correct me if I'm wrong), giving Dick and Damian something in common with two names coming from mythology. And Damian would still have a bird themed name.

Of Damian ever took Rokh/Roc as a code name...

...Then his nickname *MUST* be...

...BIG BIRD.

[dietrich]

Of Damian ever took Rokh/Roc as a code name...

...Then his nickname *MUST* be...

...BIG BIRD.

lol! That works on so many levels. I love it.

[dietrich]

New to this thread but I'd like to give my thought about new aliases for Tim and Damian.
For Tim I think the alias of Drake could still work, entirely depending on the writers.

For Damian, how about the alias Rokh? The mythological bird from Arabian mythology. It suits his heritage, plus didn't Dick originally got his Nightwing alias from Superman, which came from Kryptonian myths (correct me if I'm wrong), giving Dick and Damian something in common with two names coming from mythology. And Damian would still have a bird themed name.

Hi Eckri. Welcome to the Damian thread. The problem is that if Damian walks away from Robin then he is walking away from batman and everything he has built in Gotham.

Which is something I don't want to see.

I don't want Damian to get another name. I want him to Take his punishment learn from the experience and do better as Robin

[Morgoth]

By the way, since we were already talking about the period after the reboot (well, assuming that after Death Metal we are really waiting for large-scale changes), maybe deage will happen to Damian too? Since he gets a new alias (presumably as long as we know almost nothing), then perhaps it would have made more sense if he had become older. Perhaps this is also a loophole in order to reunite him with Jon, if there is no retcon.
In Death Metal the universe that we knew was destroyed, plus there, apparently, some time has passed since this happened. And also, by the way, Snyder said that the matured Damian will appear in Death Metal (but did not specify what version). Maybe they really decided then to make him older in new universe?

[Rebeca Armus]

lol! That works on so many levels. I love it.

I don't get it, Big Bird are you being sarcastic? Just a joke because he is smoll?

[Rebeca Armus]

By the way, since we were already talking about the period after the reboot (well, assuming that after Death Metal we are really waiting for large-scale changes), maybe deage will happen to Damian too? Since he gets a new alias (presumably as long as we know almost nothing), then perhaps it would have made more sense if he had become older. Perhaps this is also a loophole in order to reunite him with Jon, if there is no retcon.
In Death Metal the universe that we knew was destroyed, plus there, apparently, some time has passed since this happened. And also, by the way, Snyder said that the matured Damian will appear in Death Metal (but did not specify what version). Maybe they really decided then to make him older in new universe?

I like the idea of Damian being much young + short for his age, I prefer keep him 13, and I prefer seeing a character grow up than a age jump, was good saw him with 11 and 12 too.
Let me ask, DC do reboot in only one universe (like just reboot Batman universe)? Because if everything is ok with other heroes stories I don't think they will reboot just because of Batfamily...
Any chance about the reboot is made by Jon and futures heroes for Damian Baby Hitler don't happens?

[godisawesome]

I don't get it, Big Bird are you being sarcastic? Just a joke because he is smoll?

The Rokh/Roc creature from mythology is a bird that picks up elephants, so the irony of Damian being the shortest sidekick with an oversized code name *does* have an immediate sarcasm to it.

...But it also acts as an opposite to the “Little bird” nickname that Tim got from Shiva, and that I know at least one other Robin has somewhere.

[Rebeca Armus]

The Rokh/Roc creature from mythology is a bird that picks up elephants, so the irony of Damian being the shortest sidekick with an oversized code name *does* have an immediate sarcasm to it.

...But it also acts as an opposite to the “Little bird” nickname that Tim got from Shiva, and that I know at least one other Robin has somewhere.

I am laughting now XD YES, good name for Damian.
I still think Damian could be flame bird for a while... I know everybody is saying this is not possible, but this would be he stop being Robin, keeping a "Bird" in his name, not distance himself of Batfamily, becoming the Dick-Damian duo again... don't need to be for too much time, but would be the best for Damian, right? Maybe he could be a transition between Robin and a original ID in future.

I saw this fanart one time and fall in love for the idea.