Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[Ezyo1000]

It's easy to view it as a zero sum game, when there's never been a minority female leading an mcu movie, and it's quite possible there never will be.

Its harsh .. but from purely the perspective of those who want to see a female lead, Shuri is their best and arguably only shot. I guess Storm is a possibility but they are a long ways from that. So I get it ... I don't necessarily agree with it, but I get it.

Not that it matters one way or the other since I doubt that will be Cooglers deciding factor.

I understand the lack of representation, however the answer isn't to try and canalize the franchise that, as chief mentioned, carried Black Female representation on its back and did so more than any other superhero movie or arguably most movies in general have done. You demand for those existing characters to have the chance to be brought to life. No one that bp would become a cultural movement, no one thought Luke Cage would break Netflix. They are examples of what can be done when a hungry and mostly underrepresented demographic is given the same care as other franchises. Explore that. Its also why I am not super keen on having characters race bent as some sort of solution to lack of diversity. Is it better than nothing? Yes. But I would rather actual poc characters and heroes get their due rather than being a supporting cast on a predominantly white cast to fill a check box

[XPac]

Well, this particular role requires certain criteria. The position isn't a made up role and nor are they hiring in-house.

They MIGHT be hiring in-house. That would be the upside of using Shuri or Killmonger. The audience already knows and like these characters.

In some ways a brand new actor is more of a gamble. That said, marvel has been so good with casting that I doubt we have anything to worry about either way. Again, point being whatever direction Coogler decides to take will be just fine.

[Ezyo1000]

You bring someone in new ... or you replace them with someone who is already there. That's the question mark.

I have several examples of this from personal experiences with myself being the in house replacement and seeing in house replacements and my answer is this. Unless you have been properly groomed to take over that role in the future (you know, shadowing, training courses, doing some of the light work of said job title) it's better to hire someone outside the company who has experience doing that job already. Because if you aren't trained to do it and that person is THE guy who had that down, alot of times it's sink or swim and depending on the level that it requires it sets the unprepared person up for failure.

When it happened to me the guy I was replacing had been doing that job for 35 years and was the only person that knew how to do the job in its entirety, I expressed interest in his position and had very limited exposure to his job, a week at best and that's being generous. No one at the company, supervisors or the foreman even, knew how to do his job and only knew snippets. By the time I left the company to have surgery (which put me out for a minimum of 6 months) I knew maybe 40-50% of his job and had been chewed out and yelled at so much for not knowing the job, despite those same people not having a clue either, that when I went in for surgery I didn't want to come back to the job, because despite having general knowledge in the field (quality inspection/assurance) I didn't know that job at all and the only person that did wasn't around to train me.

Now the place I am at now, I replaced a guy as quality assurance, but prior to replacing him I expressed interest in the area and was groomed properly to take over (job shadowing my replacement, asking tons of questions, job shadowed the entire quality department, was given time to do inspections with my replacement and tested for it, as well as being very familiar with the area I was going to take over as I worked in that same area as well) and my transition into that position when he left was seamless.

I had the knowledge and the alot of the core basics down and at that point it was a matter of fine tuning what I knew plus some other systems I was already exposed to but didn't quite know them but was able to pick them up quickly because that exposure, that led to me current success in said position because she. It came time I was ready for what the position required of me.

So yeah unless you have been groomed and on the path to doing the job (in this case, unless Shuri was shown as showing interest or signs of potential succession) it's better to hire someone outside who has experience in thst field and knows how to do that job as they will have a much easier time adjusting to the company and getting up to speed

[Blind Wedjat]

Bruh I think your kinda also jumping the gun a little. Yes some of it may be fanboyism or entitlement even, I'll admit I have gotten fired up a couple times as well, but I am looking at this from a very likely root cause which is based around. The disrespect shown to Chadwick AN HOUR AFTER LEARNING OF HOS PASSING. Literally an hour after it was known (some even sooner like on the twitter post) people were calling for Shuri to take over. These are the same people calling for that when the movie dropped and less than 24 hours were calling for Shuri to take over for the sequel. Those people showing up in droves and people mourning felt that they were using tragedy to further their agenda and have it gain traction, followed by ishtty website's and Youtubers like we got this covered and grace randolph try to capitalize clicks and this is the situation we have now.

But there is a difference between the likes of Screenrant, We Got This Covered, Grace Randolph (who at least to her credit posits herself as a fan of the movie) and the like who just want to peddle rumours and clickbait for the sake of it, and people who genuinely believe recasting T'Challa is a tall order and perhaps letting Shuri take the mantle might be a legitimate course of action.

We need to let this discussion have nuance if we're going to have it. I think accusing everyone who thinks differently from you as having some kind of nefarious agenda is what I have a problem with. I've seen black guys who were huge Black Panther fans say they don't want a recast (without saying Shuri should take over). Do they have an agenda, is being a black man is the criterion we're using? Coupled with telling people to man up or not be cowards just because they won't do what you want is what pisses me off. Trying to minimise what this situation is by saying it's not a big deal sounds very disrespectful.

You know me well enough to know that I was 100% against Shuri being BP before this even happened and all the silly rumours were flying about. I've even said that at the moment I don't want a recast but I might feel that way later. So I'm not trying to suggest anything. I just think we can't act like the Shuri isn't a legitimate course of action now. Of course I don't want it, but it's not wrong.

And I don't think T'Challa is gonna go away just because this happens. It'll cause a shift but it won't be permanent. Hank Pym isn't a legitimate comparison because Pym was made a problematic character.

[Ascended]

So if there finance people told them that they'd make more money with Shuri as BP, then that's what they should do right?

It should be a consideration. Marvel Studios and Disney are not NPO's and business' end goal is making as much money as possible. But "raw business" isn't the end point of discussions like this. This is a creative industry, and you can't quantify that in a balance sheet. What you gotta do is decide what the best story you can possibly tell is, and then square that against the accountants and business stuff. Sometimes you gotta give a little on one end to satisfy the other, and in the end hope to hell that what you end up with works and is successful.

And yeah, everyone here....we're passionate about this character and franchise and we want what we want. That's fine; fan prerogative to think that way. But that blinds us to a lot of stuff; I still haven't seen very many people talking about whether Wright would even want to step up if she's offered the chance. I've seen even fewer people talking about whether Coogler will stick around without Chadwick there. Or what the plan was for the Panther in the wider MCU beyond just the solo sequel.

Whatever Fiege and Coogler decide, they'll tell the best story they can under the circumstances. And while we all have our own ideas about where we want the IP to go, I feel like a lot of us are getting way too wired here; we're all in the same boat and we all want a quality, successful movie we can enjoy that brings hope to kids (and kids at heart) everywhere. And I feel like, y'all wanna talk about honoring Chadwick....you think he'd want people here, the hardcore BP fanbase, arguing among ourselves about what to do with his empty suit? I didn't know him but I feel like the dude would want us united in the face of tragedy. Like the quote I got in my sig; we're in this together and we shouldn't be fighting, we should be standing firm in our love and respect for this franchise and what it means to us. Whether we get the BP sequel we personally want or not....more connects us than separates us. And we shouldn't lose sight of that.

[Ezyo1000]

But there is a difference between the likes of Screenrant, We Got This Covered, Grace Randolph (who at least to her credit posits herself as a fan of the movie) and the like who just want to peddle rumours and clickbait for the sake of it, and people who genuinely believe recasting T'Challa is a tall order and perhaps letting Shuri take the mantle might be a legitimate course of action.

We need to let this discussion have nuance if we're going to have it. I think accusing everyone who thinks differently from you as having some kind of nefarious agenda is what I have a problem with. I've seen black guys who were huge Black Panther fans say they don't want a recast (without saying Shuri should take over). Do they have an agenda, is being a black man is the criterion we're using? Coupled with telling people to man up or not be cowards just because they won't do what you want is what pisses me off. Trying to minimise what this situation is by saying it's not a big deal sounds very disrespectful.

You know me well enough to know that I was 100% against Shuri being BP before this even happened and all the silly rumours were flying about. I've even said that at the moment I don't want a recast but I might feel that way later. So I'm not trying to suggest anything. I just think we can't act like the Shuri isn't a legitimate course of action now. Of course I don't want it, but it's not wrong.

And I don't think T'Challa is gonna go away just because this happens. It'll cause a shift but it won't be permanent. Hank Pym isn't a legitimate comparison because Pym was made a problematic character.

I'm not saying that everyone who's saying Shuri should take over have nefarious reasons, some might be genuine, but I'm talking about the ones who called for this as the movie dropped and as soon as Chad passed. And it's men and women or every race that did that that I say has an agenda. Its Also what they say too. "Have T'Challa die heroically, and have Shuri tske over." "Bo kbe can replace Chadwick, let this be a standalone and have Shuri move up. Etc etc. Obe of the websites, I believe it was screen rant, wanted to use the post credits scene to have the next big bad kill T'Challa so that it would set them up as a serious baddy and set their story arc in motion. Like, it's the isht that is using him as a prop thst bugs me. Abd I know that there are genuine people, plenty have posted here, I disagree but i don't sling Insults.

Recast or Shuri taking the mantle both come with their own set of issues. But if you look at my example above about hiring in house or outside when it comes to if the person in house has been groomed to take over, that's one major issue with Shuri. And personally, I do think T'Challa would vanish and become a foot note in Shuris journey. I mean, look how Coates treated T'Challa when he had the most attention on him? Disney is a business they would go all in with Shuri, and assuming she stayed the role foe 10 years.. if T'Challa died they won't keep revisiting him. They will move on and have her carve her own way. But I don't think that is wise considering T'Challas story isn't completed and he has already "died" several times. How many times is enough?

Marvel doesn't need to decide right now what they want to do , they have several years to come up with a course of action and I think more people will lean to recast. Again it's not about being right, it's about doing the character Justice and allowing people time to grieve. I just personally find it hard to be on the side of Shuri taking over when Chadwick fought ,(and said as much in interviews) to have black people exist in the same space and wanted T'Challa to outlive all of us. Plus there's a mountain of work that needs to be done for Shuri to take over and either way If she does then BP 2 would basically be a retread of BP 1.

Also another point you made in a different post, Paul walker, of he passed after the first FF movie and it was a Major success and the character he played was part of a comic series that he was the star of and had been around for decade's, I would expect them to not write the character off either especially if going forward he and his world would have a greater effect and correlation to a building universe

[Ezyo1000]

It should be a consideration. Marvel Studios and Disney are not NPO's and business' end goal is making as much money as possible. But "raw business" isn't the end point of discussions like this. This is a creative industry, and you can't quantify that in a balance sheet. What you gotta do is decide what the best story you can possibly tell is, and then square that against the accountants and business stuff. Sometimes you gotta give a little on one end to satisfy the other, and in the end hope to hell that what you end up with works and is successful.

And yeah, everyone here....we're passionate about this character and franchise and we want what we want. That's fine; fan prerogative to think that way. But that blinds us to a lot of stuff; I still haven't seen very many people talking about whether Wright would even want to step up if she's offered the chance. I've seen even fewer people talking about whether Coogler will stick around without Chadwick there. Or what the plan was for the Panther in the wider MCU beyond just the solo sequel.

Whatever Fiege and Coogler decide, they'll tell the best story they can under the circumstances. And while we all have our own ideas about where we want the IP to go, I feel like a lot of us are getting way too wired here; we're all in the same boat and we all want a quality, successful movie we can enjoy that brings hope to kids (and kids at heart) everywhere. And I feel like, y'all wanna talk about honoring Chadwick....you think he'd want people here, the hardcore BP fanbase, arguing among ourselves about what to do with his empty suit? I didn't know him but I feel like the dude would want us united in the face of tragedy. Like the quote I got in my sig; we're in this together and we shouldn't be fighting, we should be standing firm in our love and respect for this franchise and what it means to us. Whether we get the BP sequel we personally want or not....more connects us than separates us. And we shouldn't lose sight of that.

Yes fans want what they want, however, I do not think it's bad that fans of the character who have been fans since before some of us were even born, and have waited their entire life for this to happen, being told by some (many of whom are most likely casuals with very little stock in the character or franchise) telling them to sit down and let a support character take the reigns and just be cool with it's can you really blame people for not just rolling with that? Especially when that thing happens to alot of black male characters?

[4sake Baned]

Bruh I think your kinda also jumping the gun a little. Yes some of it may be fanboyism or entitlement even, I'll admit I have gotten fired up a couple times as well, but I am looking at this from a very likely root cause which is based around. The disrespect shown to Chadwick AN HOUR AFTER LEARNING OF HOS PASSING. Literally an hour after it was known (some even sooner like on the twitter post) people were calling for Shuri to take over. These are the same people calling for that when the movie dropped and less than 24 hours were calling for Shuri to take over for the sequel. Those people showing up in droves and people mourning felt that they were using tragedy to further their agenda and have it gain traction, followed by ishtty website's and Youtubers like we got this covered and grace randolph try to capitalize clicks and this is the situation we have now.

As I have said, I am in the boat of recast. But notice I have never said this would be the easiest choice and it's simple, notice how I have never named an actor I think can and should take the role, I have expressed that time will need to pass and Marvel hasn't made any choices yet BUT it would be a huge disservice to T'Challa and Chadwick's legacy to let all his hard work die with him.

I also disagree that the notion of T'Challa being a footnote in Shuris journey if she takes over is out of the realm of possibility, nor is it guarantee that a reboot will happen in 10 years because comic movie's can fall out of popularity on that time. So it's a little disingenuous to assume that he would just be back even of he is written off. People have waited their entire lives and never expected to see T'Challa show up on the big screen and to write him off now after he just appeared is wrong, especially for a supporting cast member. Its his franchise, understand why people dont want to just accept that and have issues. This isn't bats spider man or Superman with decade's of movie's cartoon's and games and comics.
Most of us only dreamed of this opportunity and to see it taken away possibly, especially the ishtty treatment T'Challa had gotten since his 50 year debut is something that is kinda frustrating that it's a real possibility, and what type of message is thst sending? If the biggest and greatest Black super hero of all time can be so easily replaced like that then what chance do other Black hero's have?

This isn't an attack post either but having a sensible discussion, I respect your opinion and all the brothers and sisters that post here even if we dont always agree.

Can’t be better said..

[skyvolt2000]

Yes fans want what they want, however, I do not think it's bad that fans of the character who have been fans since before some of us were even born, and have waited their entire life for this to happen, being told by some (many of whom are most likely casuals with very little stock in the character or franchise) telling them to sit down and let a support character take the reigns and just be cool with it's can you really blame people for not just rolling with that? Especially when that thing happens to alot of black male characters?

Especially when all see is BELITTLEMENT of whatever out black heroes do.

We got folks belittle POC for having long solo runs saying they don't matter if they don't have significant impact on Marvel or DC. Something no one asks of white characters.

How many times are we going to get told to SIT down when others have been HOSTILE? Snyder cut anybody????

Recast or Shuri taking the mantle both come with their own set of issues.

True and everyone here understands that.

So if there finance people told them that they'd make more money with Shuri as BP, then that's what they should do right?

I would ask for them to show me how that would happen.
I would ask the same for a recast or a new person.
I just want to see it in terms of movie budget. If I am spending $200 million.

Does Shuri, recast or new person at least gets me to break even?

Shuri in that suit in terms of MERCHADISE is going to sell. Unlike Cap Marvel there are not going to be 4-5 versions of her at the Dollar Tree. Nor her in clearance before the movie like Wonder Woman (4 times so far).

And sadly in SHuri's case she would have to deal with the pushback to black female lead films. We have seen those claws come out in full force.

How would that toxic behavior hurt her? Reminder that is not just trolls online but business owners too.

We didn't see a Black Panther happy meal.....
Michael B Jordan's Fantastic Four soda wasn't sold everywhere.
Static despite ratings couldn't get toys.

[XPac]

Especially when all see is BELITTLEMENT of whatever out black heroes do.

We got folks belittle POC for having long solo runs saying they don't matter if they don't have significant impact on Marvel or DC. Something no one asks of white characters.

How many times are we going to get told to SIT down when others have been HOSTILE? Snyder cut anybody????




True and everyone here understands that.




I would ask for them to show me how that would happen.
I would ask the same for a recast or a new person.
I just want to see it in terms of movie budget. If I am spending $200 million.

Does Shuri, recast or new person at least gets me to break even?

Shuri in that suit in terms of MERCHADISE is going to sell. Unlike Cap Marvel there are not going to be 4-5 versions of her at the Dollar Tree. Nor her in clearance before the movie like Wonder Woman (4 times so far).

And sadly in SHuri's case she would have to deal with the pushback to black female lead films. We have seen those claws come out in full force.

How would that toxic behavior hurt her? Reminder that is not just trolls online but business owners too.

We didn't see a Black Panther happy meal.....
Michael B Jordan's Fantastic Four soda wasn't sold everywhere.
Static despite ratings couldn't get toys.

I think the issue of black female lead backlash is probably why Shuri is a relatively safe choice to at least try and make it work (even though there's likely no 100% backlash proof option). When she's already a part of a billion dollar franchise, you at least don't have to worry quite as much about that push back causing you to crash and burn. I like Shuri's odd a heck of a lot better than say Misty Knight or Spectrum. You can criticize it for piggy backing... but if piggy backing prevents helps something from NOT being a bust then what the heck... might as well piggy back.

[MindofShadow]

And I don't think T'Challa is gonna go away just because this happens. It'll cause a shift but it won't be permanent. .

Do you honestly think they will still use T'challa in video games if they decide to shift to Shuri as BP?

Do you still think they will have T'challa at Disney World for a photoshoot if they are too afraid to recast in the MCU? Wouldn't that bring the same emotions due to the fact you can't see faces in BP habit?

Why would they put marketing effort into a character they cant' profit from? It doesn't really make sense to have both of them. Their powersets are identical. It is simply a reskin.

I am sure a lot of people are being pessimistic as hell with it but I think you are being a tad too optimistic.

The only reason BP ever got a cartoon or a DLC in recent games is because fo the MCU. Ditto for legos, merch, toys. It sure as hell aint' because fo the comics.

In fact, I think if they refused to recast but still decided to profit off of T'chadwick woudl be about the grossest possible option. "Sorry, we can't recast.. but make sure to buy this T'chadwick figurine still!"

I do think there are plausible arguments for not recasting. But for T'challa the character, it would be a serious set back until they reboot in 30 years.

[Marvell2100]

I think the simple question is this: Why does T'Challa have to die in the MCU?

[chief12d]

Do you honestly think they will still use T'challa in video games if they decide to shift to Shuri as BP?

Do you still think they will have T'challa at Disney World for a photoshoot if they are too afraid to recast in the MCU? Wouldn't that bring the same emotions due to the fact you can't see faces in BP habit?

Why would they put marketing effort into a character they cant' profit from? It doesn't really make sense to have both of them. Their powersets are identical. It is simply a reskin.

I am sure a lot of people are being pessimistic as hell with it but I think you are being a tad too optimistic.

The only reason BP ever got a cartoon or a DLC in recent games is because fo the MCU. Ditto for legos, merch, toys. It sure as hell aint' because fo the comics.

In fact, I think if they refused to recast but still decided to profit off of T'chadwick woudl be about the grossest possible option. "Sorry, we can't recast.. but make sure to buy this T'chadwick figurine still!"

I do think there are plausible arguments for not recasting. But for T'challa the character, it would be a serious set back until they reboot in 30 years.

Exactly. It's one thing to be ok with Shuri taking the mantle it's another to also ignore the impacts a shift in the mantle has across every medium. T'Challa was only getting the push he got because Coogler and Boseman delivered an excellent film and the character showed his profitability as a brand. If T'Challa dies prematurely in the MCU, because of the ever controversial synergy, Shuri will be positioned as the face of the franchise. The extent is debatable of course, but I strongly doubt if BP2 is some smash hit that Shuri won't be the first Wakandan people see on Marvel game rosters or be getting slots on major teams that previously would've gone to T'Challa. He's not Spider-Man or Batman, his character won't be "just fine" after missing out on one of the biggest pop cultural phenomena of this century as his sister becomes the face of the franchise.

[chief12d]

I think the simple question is this: Why does T'Challa have to die in the MCU?

Some people understandably have a hard time separating the actor from the character they portray so it'll never feel right to have someone (in the same continuity no less) play T'Challa so soon after Boseman brought him to life. Add in Boseman's terrific performance and the tragedy surrounding his early death and I think for many people it's easier on their hearts to retire the character for a time before they feel comfortable allowing someone else to attempt to take on T'Challa. Now there are less pretty reasons for why some think T'Challa should die but I think at the end of the day it's mostly rooted in feelings of attachment to Boseman's work and the man himself.

[Marvell2100]

Some people understandably have a hard time separating the actor from the character they portray so it'll never feel right to have someone (in the same continuity no less) play T'Challa so soon after Boseman brought him to life. Add in Boseman's terrific performance and the tragedy surrounding his early death and I think for many people it's easier on their hearts to retire the character for a time before they feel comfortable allowing someone else to attempt to take on T'Challa. Now there are less pretty reasons for why some think T'Challa should die but I think at the end of the day it's mostly rooted in feelings of attachment to Boseman's work and the man himself.

I know Bosemans' death is still fresh in everyones' mind. But BP2 won't hit theaters until 2023 at the earliest so we're looking at 2 and 1/2 plus years. That's a longtime for opinions to change.