Future State Batman books

[Tzigone]

I doubt Damian as Robin is over and there's also the fact that future creators are bound to introduce new character's down the line as possible replacements [Duke] This move is only going to keeps fans and Tim [Steph and Cass] from moving on

Which is why I'm less than fond of legacies. Practically demands fanbase infighting each for their favorite.

But frankly, so did the way they made Damian Robin - it was tailor-made to piss off Tim fans. As was, really, the second-go-round on Dick/Jason transition to a lesser degree, but thankfully Dick was already popular as Nightwing and a non-sidekick before that happened. I guess early Red Robin was supposed to compensate, but I thought it sucked. I don't want Tim back as Robin, but don't think he's been done well by Red Robin or Drake (then again, I thought he went downhill when they made him all angsty). But I really think they need to quit introducing more Bats, especially kids to take a particular role. Because they aren't going to age up Bruce and it becomes a mess. Plus, it's too crowded to utilize all characters well if they persist on keeping them in the BatShadow (instead of letting them go independent like Dick did the 1980s), and they are going to persist because Batman sells. I think they are making creative decision that further make them dependent on that one IP, but it is what it is.

I think it's like someone else said about DC - they don't care about characters. Not Tim or Damian. Just about the IP "Robin." They want a Robin (Aqualad, Superboy, Wonder Girl, etc.). When they're done with one and want a new/younger one, that character ends up in ill or unused while a new one takes their place. Bats get more chances than most, since the franchise is popular.

[dietrich]

Which is why I'm less than fond of legacies. Practically demands fanbase infighting each for their favorite.

But frankly, so did the way they made Damian Robin - it was tailor-made to piss off Tim fans. As was, really, the second-go-round on Dick/Jason transition to a lesser degree, but thankfully Dick was already popular as Nightwing and a non-sidekick before that happened. I guess early Red Robin was supposed to compensate, but I thought it sucked. I don't want Tim back as Robin, but don't think he's been done well by Red Robin or Drake (then again, I thought he went downhill when they made him all angsty). But I really think they need to quit introducing more Bats, especially kids to take a particular role. Because they aren't going to age up Bruce and it becomes a mess. Plus, it's too crowded to utilize all characters well if they persist on keeping them in the BatShadow (instead of letting them go independent like Dick did the 1980s), and they are going to persist because Batman sells. I think they are making creative decision that further make them dependent on that one IP, but it is what it is.

I think it's like someone else said about DC - they don't care about characters. Not Tim or Damian. Just about the IP "Robin." They want a Robin (Aqualad, Superboy, Wonder Girl, etc.). When they're done with one and want a new/younger one, that character ends up in ill or unused while a new one takes their place. Bats get more chances than most, since the franchise is popular.

Damian was a temp character introduced organically from the story the writer was telling. He wasn't leadership or a writer flexing his position to satisfy his fanboy bias by pushing his favourite.

Morrison viewed Damian as a disposable plot device even up till the end when he killed off. He never intended Damian to replace Tim and even commented on how he knew Damian would be problematic for Scott who likes his Batman alone. He turned into a mainstay due to becoming profitable and popular.

His creator didn't crap on or purposely destroy another in order to find room. No they gave Tim a solo and gave him a big role in the story.

When WB decided to keep him against his creator's plans, DC didn't throw Tim under the bus. No they gave him Dick's background as TT's founder and gave him Terry mantle and title.

It's not the same. Every effort was made to keep Tim fans happy even going as far as to limbo one character and undercutting the original Boy Wonder's history and achievements just to satisfy them.

The fact that those turned out the way they did is another issue nothing to do Damian.

What they did to Damian IS tailor made to piss off fans. What they did to Tim was try over and over and over to keep fans happy.

I agree that DC/WB only cares about the IP Robin which is understandable. Robin has become a mantle that gets passed on so replacements are to be expected but it should never be done by purposefully shitting on the existing/last holder to prop the replacement like they've done twice now with Tim [Jason and Damian]

[J. D. Guy]

I'm not saying him being a biological child made him more important than the others, but introducing him as Robin and Bruce's biological son raised a lot of interesting ideas about family, inheritance, and the pressure of legacy just by juxtaposing him to the Robin's that came before him that Bruce had made into his family when he felt he had none left (sans Alfred, rest his soul...no seriously let this man's soul rest DC). It was an interesting angle that made all the Robin characters more interesting imo, I don't think Tim does that. Tim came about when Robin was a little more simple, but I feel they've said all that he had to say about the role and he doesn't have anything that was so compelling that he NEEDED to be Robin again; except that they couldn't find anything else to do with Tim Drake.

Or, I would also append, that the fans would allow them to do with Tim.

[Frontier]

Which is why I'm less than fond of legacies. Practically demands fanbase infighting each for their favorite.

But frankly, so did the way they made Damian Robin - it was tailor-made to piss off Tim fans. As was, really, the second-go-round on Dick/Jason transition to a lesser degree, but thankfully Dick was already popular as Nightwing and a non-sidekick before that happened. I guess early Red Robin was supposed to compensate, but I thought it sucked. I don't want Tim back as Robin, but don't think he's been done well by Red Robin or Drake (then again, I thought he went downhill when they made him all angsty). But I really think they need to quit introducing more Bats, especially kids to take a particular role. Because they aren't going to age up Bruce and it becomes a mess. Plus, it's too crowded to utilize all characters well if they persist on keeping them in the BatShadow (instead of letting them go independent like Dick did the 1980s), and they are going to persist because Batman sells. I think they are making creative decision that further make them dependent on that one IP, but it is what it is.

I think it's like someone else said about DC - they don't care about characters. Not Tim or Damian. Just about the IP "Robin." They want a Robin (Aqualad, Superboy, Wonder Girl, etc.). When they're done with one and want a new/younger one, that character ends up in ill or unused while a new one takes their place. Bats get more chances than most, since the franchise is popular.

I don't think it has to lead to in-fighting when handled respectfully and each character gets to do their own thing...but sometimes at the end of the day fans want to read about the characters they like in the identities they like them with.

Dick's independent, he just comes back for family stuff when they need him.

[Konja7]

Which is why I'm less than fond of legacies. Practically demands fanbase infighting each for their favorite.

But frankly, so did the way they made Damian Robin - it was tailor-made to piss off Tim fans. As was, really, the second-go-round on Dick/Jason transition to a lesser degree, but thankfully Dick was already popular as Nightwing and a non-sidekick before that happened. I guess early Red Robin was supposed to compensate, but I thought it sucked. I don't want Tim back as Robin, but don't think he's been done well by Red Robin or Drake (then again, I thought he went downhill when they made him all angsty). But I really think they need to quit introducing more Bats, especially kids to take a particular role. Because they aren't going to age up Bruce and it becomes a mess. Plus, it's too crowded to utilize all characters well if they persist on keeping them in the BatShadow (instead of letting them go independent like Dick did the 1980s), and they are going to persist because Batman sells. I think they are making creative decision that further make them dependent on that one IP, but it is what it is.

I think it's like someone else said about DC - they don't care about characters. Not Tim or Damian. Just about the IP "Robin." They want a Robin (Aqualad, Superboy, Wonder Girl, etc.). When they're done with one and want a new/younger one, that character ends up in ill or unused while a new one takes their place. Bats get more chances than most, since the franchise is popular.

It is pretty difficult DC will allow characters become really independent from Batman, because the current direct market is too closed (and shrinking).

It is pretty difficult a book could survive in the direct market if it isn't connected to a big name.

[Konja7]

I don't think it has to lead to in-fighting when handled respectfully and each character gets to do their own thing...but sometimes at the end of the day fans want to read about the characters they like in the identities they like them with.

Dick's independent, he just comes back for family stuff when they need him.

I think Tzigone means independent like Dick was in New Teen Titans where he was really independent from Batman.

Now, Dick is still under Batman editorial control. That isn't really independent for Batman.

[Badou]

Dick's independent, he just comes back for family stuff when they need him.

Damian, Tim and even Jason have been more independent than Dick has since the New 52 though. They have ventured outside of Batman's stories and events far more often since the reboot with Dick being firmly stuck under Batman's thumb and Batman stories dictating his direction more than anyone except Bruce.

[KrustyKid]

Damian, Tim and even Jason have been more independent than Dick has since the New 52 though. They have ventured outside of Batman's stories and events far more often since the reboot with Dick being firmly stuck under Batman's thumb and Batman stories dictating his direction more than anyone except Bruce.

Now when I think about it, you're absolutely right

[Frontier]

Damian, Tim and even Jason have been more independent than Dick has since the New 52 though. They have ventured outside of Batman's stories and events far more often since the reboot with Dick being firmly stuck under Batman's thumb and Batman stories dictating his direction more than anyone except Bruce.

He's never really felt like he's under Batman's thumb to me, though. I mean, yeah Batman events have impacted him (and Forever Evil was a DC event) but not because he's attached at the hip to Batman.

[Tzigone]

I think Tzigone means independent like Dick was in New Teen Titans where he was really independent from Batman.

Now, Dick is still under Batman editorial control. That isn't really independent for Batman.

Not just that, though there is that. But when he comes back for events or crossovers or whatnot, he is subordinate to Bruce. He isn't treated like a peer to the other first-gen heroes anymore. Since the NTT went downhill and Dick came back, he's been Bruce's employee whenever Bruce wants him to be. Sure, he had his own stories (and some good ones), but he take assignments from Bruce whenever Bruce wants him to. His goals gets put on the back burner when Bruce wants something. And, of course, for all those Bat-centric events, he's the supporting player (and sometimes foot soldier) to Batman. He is in no way treated like an equal. Even though, if you look at historically, Dick has been a hero nearly as long as Batman (and longer than Wonder Woman).

Nowadays, Dick is first and foremost a satellite hero in the Batfamily instead of an independent hero. Look at the 1980s, and it just wasn't that way. I think many of these young heroes work much better when given space from the primary and crossing over less often. It gives them more opportunity to be perceived by the fandom as independent heroes worthy of respect in their own right instead of just supporting players for the first-gen heroes. It keeps them from being forever sidekicks.

I liked Kon only occasionally seeing Clark and acting as a sort of cousin, not brother or son. Bart with Max and not so much with Wally (or Jay), especially as he grows older. I always argue against those who want Donna and Cassie brought in as Diana's supporting cast because I think don't it would serve Donna and Cassie well. Donna on the NTT was good. It was the best era for them because they got to grow up and away, and I do think that space helped them not be kept in the shadows of prior heroes. Then the NTT went down the tubes.

So, yeah, I kinda think keeping the spinoffs to the "family" can be detrimental to them forming independent fanbases and being seen as grownups and equals to older heroes. The teen ones at least, are often active sidekicks, so it's okay with them (well, the sidekick ones, not the independent ones) but once the grow up they need to spread their wings.

As it is, even Barbara, who was originally an independent hero, has been retconned into a protege/sidekick of Batman. Do not like.

[Godlike13]

Damian, Tim and even Jason have been more independent than Dick has since the New 52 though. They have ventured outside of Batman's stories and events far more often since the reboot with Dick being firmly stuck under Batman's thumb and Batman stories dictating his direction more than anyone except Bruce.

Have they though. Not that Dick's independent.

[Light of Justice]

Damian was a temp character introduced organically from the story the writer was telling. He wasn't leadership or a writer flexing his position to satisfy his fanboy bias by pushing his favourite.

Morrison viewed Damian as a disposable plot device even up till the end when he killed off. He never intended Damian to replace Tim and even commented on how he knew Damian would be problematic for Scott who likes his Batman alone. He turned into a mainstay due to becoming profitable and popular.

His creator didn't crap on or purposely destroy another in order to find room. No they gave Tim a solo and gave him a big role in the story.

When WB decided to keep him against his creator's plans, DC didn't throw Tim under the bus. No they gave him Dick's background as TT's founder and gave him Terry mantle and title.

It's not the same. Every effort was made to keep Tim fans happy even going as far as to limbo one character and undercutting the original Boy Wonder's history and achievements just to satisfy them.

The fact that those turned out the way they did is another issue nothing to do Damian.

What they did to Damian IS tailor made to piss off fans. What they did to Tim was try over and over and over to keep fans happy.

I agree that DC/WB only cares about the IP Robin which is understandable. Robin has become a mantle that gets passed on so replacements are to be expected but it should never be done by purposefully shitting on the existing/last holder to prop the replacement like they've done twice now with Tim [Jason and Damian]

I think that's the main problem of Tim's writing. When it comes to Tim, sometimes I feel like writers write his story for the sake of pleasing Tim fans only. Like, look fans want Tim to be greatest detective in the world besides Bruce, give them that! Hey look, fans want him to be leader just like Dick, give them that! Hey look, fans want future Batman version of him, give them that! Hey look, fans want him to have new codename, give them that! I mean, sure writers usually write stories for fans, but with that kind of motivation, it will be huge turn off for non-fans, even sometimes for fans too. Add throwing other characters under the bus for his sake, that will just sprouting hate for his character.

Damian, is the ultimate opposite of his condition. With him, sometimes I feel like writers don't have any restraint at all. "Screw fans, let's see what can I do to him muahahahaha" probably that exist on some writer's mind while writing that poor kid (for our eternal suffering and stress as Damian fans). It's certainly sucks for us on many points, but that makes his stories feel fresh and progressive (albeit not on good direction). I remember Bendis (or other writers maybe, I don't really remember) once said that he has fun writing Damian because he can do things that he can't do to other characters, because Damian is Damian (considering how Bendis wrote Damian, certainly that man had fun abusing his chances. And actually his Damian's writing on Leviathan Dawn is quite good development for him, sadly Checkmate event got postponed for indefinite time).

Not that I say writing for pleasing fans is always bad thing and writer goes full out on story and disregarding fan's demand is always good thing, both of them have their own plus and minus. Both of the methods have their own fans and haters. And also not that I say all Tim's story is for pleasing fans and all Damian's story is writer wrecking him on many direction, Dceased is one of example of Damian's story that's written with Tim style of writing, I think (and that's why I dropped that title, also maybe because I'm not fans of zombie plot in general, not even on Train to Busan hype era) and fans LOVE it.

I mean, when for 5G preparation they hire new writer and create 20+ issue for Damian screwing up and losing Robin title when on Tim they just throw him on Bendis, stick new codename that literally his surname on him, give him costume that resemble female duck even though Drake is stands for male duck a.k.a the most dangerous bird in the world, then discards it for uncertain in-universe reasons and on some recent issue make him jumps between Drake, Robin, and Red Robin name, it's obvious which character and future DC is invested too. At this point, I can't even tell whether DC loves Damian and hates Tim, or hates Damian and loves Tim, or some kind of sadism acts for both poor boys, knowing that their fans are masochist as hell. So for DC, maybe you can tone down on Damian a little and be more creative to Tim, please?

[Badou]

Have they though. Not that Dick's independent.

Just look at their stories. It isn't close. They are in far more variety of stories, interact with more characters, and their direction isn't constantly being decided by what Batman is doing. Dick's stories are pretty much all controlled by Batman since the New 52. Right out of the gate the Court of Owls is obviously a Batman story Dick was involved in. Death of the Family was the Joker trying to mess with Batman that Dick was dragged into that ended the circus stuff the Owls' story set up and lead to the Chicago arc. Then Forever Evil ended the Chicago arc to use Dick as bait for Batman with Dick doing nothing during the whole event. Then Forever Evil set up the Grayson series where Dick on Batman's orders was asked to lie about being dead to everyone and go on a mission into Spyral. Then Dick was shot in the head by KGBeast on Bane's order to mess with Batman starting the Ric arc, and the Ric arc ended when Dick was dragged into Joker War where Batman is the one that gave Dick his Nightwing costume and for the first time in two years appeared as Nightwing not in his own book but in Batman's book.

The only time Dick independently decided his own direction was Seely's Bludhaven arc. Everything thing else in Nightwing's book has all flowed from Batman and his stories. Also Dick has only been part of two teams since the New 52 and both were in Abnett's Titans run. The first Titans team ended because Batman told Dick to disband the team and Dick rolled over and did what Batman said in the most pathetic way possible, and the second team Batman told Dick to have the Titans operate under the JL in the JL Headquarters and to add Miss Martian to the team. Dick did both of them and then got removed from the team after he got shot in the head in Batman's story. I don't understand how anyone can read all of this and not think Dick is stuck under Batman's thumb.

It's ridiculous. Maybe because it has been going on for so long now readers just got used to it and haven't been paying attention, but Dick's character has very little agency in deciding his own direction. Characters like Tim, Jason, and even Damian have directions that are further removed from Batman and what Batman is doing. I can't remember the last time Dick's character had so little real independence. Maybe you'd have to go back to the 70s before the NTT era.

[Tzigone]

It's ridiculous. Maybe because it has been going on for so long now readers just got used to it and haven't been paying attention, but Dick's character has very little agency in deciding his own direction. Characters like Tim, Jason, and even Damian have directions that are further removed from Batman and what Batman is doing. I can't remember the last time Dick's character had so little real independence. Maybe you'd have to go back to the 70s before the NTT era.

Dick was pretty independent in his 1970s college stories, from what I recall. Now there certainly some times in the late '90s. Like NML, when he was ordered to go handle Blackgate and did so, completely in contradiction to his own plans (which eventually ended up leaving a dangling plot thread as to exactly why someone intervened to get him at job with Bludhaven PD). But not as consistently then. Still didn't like that.

[KrustyKid]

I think that's the main problem of Tim's writing. When it comes to Tim, sometimes I feel like writers write his story for the sake of pleasing Tim fans only. Like, look fans want Tim to be greatest detective in the world besides Bruce, give them that! Hey look, fans want him to be leader just like Dick, give them that! Hey look, fans want future Batman version of him, give them that! Hey look, fans want him to have new codename, give them that! I mean, sure writers usually write stories for fans, but with that kind of motivation, it will be huge turn off for non-fans, even sometimes for fans too. Add throwing other characters under the bus for his sake, that will just sprouting hate for his character.

Damian, is the ultimate opposite of his condition. With him, sometimes I feel like writers don't have any restraint at all. "Screw fans, let's see what can I do to him muahahahaha" probably that exist on some writer's mind while writing that poor kid (for our eternal suffering and stress as Damian fans). It's certainly sucks for us on many points, but that makes his stories feel fresh and progressive (albeit not on good direction). I remember Bendis (or other writers maybe, I don't really remember) once said that he has fun writing Damian because he can do things that he can't do to other characters, because Damian is Damian (considering how Bendis wrote Damian, certainly that man had fun abusing his chances. And actually his Damian's writing on Leviathan Dawn is quite good development for him, sadly Checkmate event got postponed for indefinite time).

Not that I say writing for pleasing fans is always bad thing and writer goes full out on story and disregarding fan's demand is always good thing, both of them have their own plus and minus. Both of the methods have their own fans and haters. And also not that I say all Tim's story is for pleasing fans and all Damian's story is writer wrecking him on many direction, Dceased is one of example of Damian's story that's written with Tim style of writing, I think (and that's why I dropped that title, also maybe because I'm not fans of zombie plot in general, not even on Train to Busan hype era) and fans LOVE it.

I mean, when for 5G preparation they hire new writer and create 20+ issue for Damian screwing up and losing Robin title when on Tim they just throw him on Bendis, stick new codename that literally his surname on him, give him costume that resemble female duck even though Drake is stands for male duck a.k.a the most dangerous bird in the world, then discards it for uncertain in-universe reasons and on some recent issue make him jumps between Drake, Robin, and Red Robin name, it's obvious which character and future DC is invested too. At this point, I can't even tell whether DC loves Damian and hates Tim, or hates Damian and loves Tim, or some kind of sadism acts for both poor boys, knowing that their fans are masochist as hell. So for DC, maybe you can tone down on Damian a little and be more creative to Tim, please?

Wouldn't go that far. Damian has been propped up before and made others look like fodder. Great example being 'Robin War' where he took out Jason in battle in a couple moves, and then proceeded to one shot Tim moments later.

It's really writer dependent coupled in with what story they're trying to tell. This can lead to inconsistencies and overall head scratchers even, a prime example being Thomas/Batman soloing a group in a fight that consisted of Batwoman, Red Hood, and Cass/+more. That was definitely PIS at its finest. We've seen it multiple times, and I'm sure there will be more to come, lol.

On another note wish they had kept Tim as 'Drake'. I'm one of the few who really liked the suit, and the name would have glue dried in time. Pretty sure the changed plans with 5G altered that.