Jason Todd: Robin, Red Hood, Arkham Knight Appreciation 2020

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

BTAS Harley did team up with Ivy a few times. But at some point, had a kid, and then grandkids. Why?

Because the Ivy/Harley ship is a recent development that it wasn't a part of Harley's original characterization. There's even an infamous page from one of the original BTAS comics where Harley asks Barbara if she and Supergirl are together to which Barbara questions Harley about her relationship with Ivy to which Harley asks shocked and decides to drop the whole thing.

[Jackalope89]

Because the Ivy/Harley ship is a recent development that it wasn't a part of Harley's original characterization. There's even an infamous page from one of the original BTAS comics where Harley asks Barbara if she and Supergirl are together to which Barbara questions Harley about her relationship with Ivy to which Harley asks shocked and decides to drop the whole thing.

That was more rhetorical on my end...

[Jman27]

BTAS Harley did team up with Ivy a few times. But at some point, had a kid, and then grandkids. Why?



That is old lady Harley and her granddaughters, Dee and Dee. Whom are members of the Jokerz gang in Batman Beyond.

I need to rewatch batman beyond i dont remember nothing except for the movie which i rewatch multiple times as a kid

[Sergard]

I admit, saying that DitF is used as an eye-opener for Harley was a wrong assessment.
But, in my eyes, it's still lost potential that writers never mention TKJ in a story with Harley Quinn to point out some similarities between Barbara and Harley. (I'm not saying that Harley should be retconned into TKJ. I'd just like to know how Harley feels about it - or how Harley and Barbara in general feel about each other. I know they met each other in Heroes in Crisis but I can't even remember the story anymore.)

[Aahz]

But, in my eyes, it's still lost potential that writers never mention TKJ in a story with Harley Quinn to point out some similarities between Barbara and Harley.

The thing is that Joker in Killing Joke target Barbara because she was the daugther of inspector Gordon and didn't knew that she was Batgirl.

Also in the White Knight Universe and the DCAU Killing Joke didn't happened.

Btw. if they somehow retcon Harley into DitF in the main continuity, they almost also have to retcon her into Killing Joke, since those two happened really close after one another.

[Sergard]

The thing is that Joker in Killing Joke target Barbara because she was the daugther of inspector Gordon and didn't knew that she was Batgirl.

Also in the White Knight Universe and the DCAU Killing Joke didn't happened.

Btw. if they somehow retcon Harley into DitF in the main continuity, they almost also have to retcon her into Killing Joke, since those two happened really close after one another.

Not necessarily. They could always say that Harley wasn't around during The Killing Joke. Joker and Harley don't have to stick together 24/7.
Do we know when Dr. Quinzel turned into Harley Quinn in the current main continuity? Before or after DitF?

[Arsenal]

Didn’t RHATO Rebirth mention something about Harley treating treat Hood during his time in Arkham?

[Jackalope89]

Didn’t RHATO Rebirth mention something about Harley treating treat Hood during his time in Arkham?

Something like that, and mentioned in passing.

[RedBird]

I wonder why DC likes to use Death in the family and not The Killing Joke for giving Harley the necessary push to leave Joker.
Personally, I don't mind it. It doesn't change anything about Jason's story if Harley is involved or not. I just think it's maybe lost potential to not show the similarities between Harley and Barbara.
Both are women around the same age, both are incredibly smart - and both were deeply hurt by Joker - Barbara physically and Harley mentally.

Considering the push for Harley as a hero, it is baffling that there hasn't really been much in the way of retcons and revisions to Harleys history to justify the change, if this is to be her new status quo, then yes, there is certainly potential for story flashbacks to major events such as the Killing Joke to help shape Harleys character, as they shaped the Jokers character.

Unfortunately DC in general hasn't done a good job establishing how Harley felt about her time with Joker outside of her own abuse narrative. It wasn't the torture of innocents, and the cries of those that Joker killed that gave her any sort of epiphany, on the contrary, she gleefully joined him in his terrorisation of Gotham and it's people. Instead, it was because at times, he was cruel to her too, and that was when she realised she was not ok with her situation. It's a very good catalyst for her leaving him and becoming a solo villain, not wanting to be restrained by him. Not so much a good or logical reason for having a heel turn into heroism. Main continuity wise, she is as murderous as Joker, and even when framed with the lens of a sympathetic abuse narrative, it still means that her moving away from Joker was due to self preservation, and not because she cared about the well being or lives of others.

Far as I know WK is the first example of DITF being used as the catalyst for Harley realising Jokers monstrous behaviour. It's also possibly the best example thus far of a story actually putting the effort into Harleys backstory to justify her transformation from villain into a hero/anti-hero, instead of just hand waving it and hoping the audience is too distracted to notice.

DCs main continuity wishes it had what WK has.
A Harley Quinn that was established to have limits to her villainy. Using both its version of DITF and also HQ Black and white and red #6, WK drew a much more clear line in the sand for Harley and where her morals really were despite her love for the Joker, making her redemption more logical and credible. Her own faults and flaws aside, the story doesn't have her being as twisted and depraved as Joker, it displayed her as a villain who enjoyed the thrill of committing crimes such as major heists and having fun doing so, but not necessarily having the desire to hurt people or go out of her way to hurt innocent people. So far, the current WK Harley, is the version of Harley that the main continuity pretends it has, just an intelligent girl with a wild streak who fell for the wrong man and sadly, became in over her head. As opposed to the monstrous serial killer that the main continuity actually have on their hands, that they are now trying to pass off as just a fun loving clown girl.

[Sergard]

Matthew Rosenberg

Matthew Rosenberg Twitter 23-10-2020.jpg

[cc008]

I love his Hawkeye and would LOVE for him to write Jason. Two of my favorites.

[RedBird]

Oh the tease

[Zaresh]

Matthew Rosenberg

Matthew Rosenberg Twitter 23-10-2020.jpg

Oh, near perfect. If he were to add Wally West, Rogue and, lets say, Peter or Kaine Parker, he would be literally God Tier.
And I love his writing.
This pleases me immensely.

[Restingvoice]

Not necessarily. They could always say that Harley wasn't around during The Killing Joke. Joker and Harley don't have to stick together 24/7.
Do we know when Dr. Quinzel turned into Harley Quinn in the current main continuity? Before or after DitF?

The last time I know was in New 52 where Harley's earliest appearance alongside Joker, Batman and Robin was dated 5 years ago, the same year Joker and Dick Grayson Robin debuted.

Didn’t RHATO Rebirth mention something about Harley treating treat Hood during his time in Arkham?

Yeah that doesn't make sense unless he went to Arkham as a child since Arkham, at least in the game, also has a treatment facility for civilians. The only time Jason went to Arkham in canon was during Dick's time as Batman and no matter which continuity that's way after she became Harley and won't be able to publicly practice.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Yeah that doesn't make sense unless he went to Arkham as a child since Arkham, at least in the game, also has a treatment facility for civilians. The only time Jason went to Arkham in canon was during Dick's time as Batman and no matter which continuity that's way after she became Harley and won't be able to publicly practice.

There were passing mentions here and there that in the N52 reimagined events of the Under the Red Hood, Bruce locked Jason in Arkham for a brief period of time before he escaped and left Gotham, leading to the events of RHATO #1.