Wanda Maximoff: Scarlet Witch Appreciation 2020

[GenericUsername]

I do think Vision and Wanda were great pre-1989. Then things went to hell in a handbasket. And they destroyed both characters (and erased valuable time for their twins to grow up). Although I thought conceiving kids through magic, although very creative, was a really dangerous idea. So I kind of understood why Marvel editors instructed Byrne to get rid of them. But it was so horribly done and nothing positive came out of it. And then the kids came into existence later ANYWAY so what was the point? And because of the whole reincarnation bullshit Vision and Wanda have no relationship with them in any meaningful way. Fifteen lost years of pointless drama. I guess the only good thing that came out of it was the Vision mini-series, which is now widely regarded as a classic. But Wanda I believe came out looking worse than Vision when you come right down to it. Nobody questions his hero status. People still want Wanda to be "evil" in the movies. I used to be like you and Cruelrain. I thought the PREMISE of the Pietro-Wanda-Magneto relationship was fascinating. But Magneto ended up doing most of the taking and the twins doing most of the giving. And it has benefited his character MASSIVELY I would say and hurt them in the same degree.

I like Vision and Wanda in the movies because they don't have the HUGE baggage the books have. Bettany and Olsen are doing a great job. Wanda has had some awesome moments. I think the relationship has been sort of abusive in the films because Wanda has beaten up and killed Vision in the movies (I guess Marvel Studios is being inspired by the comic book source material). I really didn't like turning Vision into a "gentleman" in his live-action version at first (I thought he belonged more in Remains of the Day than in Captain America: Civil War), but now I just think it's funny so I'm cool with it. Wanda has done some cool **** and that makes me happy. I'm also glad she miraculously lost her accent too. I also like their origin stories thus far.

I probably would have felt the kids were a dangerous idea if the books weren't so settled into sci-fi and magic already. But it was pretty common place to have kids in weird ways. And in the story itself, was sold as being completely normal and ok. By Doctor Strange himself.

I think comics just switched from wanting those fantasy elements to wanting everything rooted in reality and being edgy. So stuff like that had to go and had to be painted then as abnormal. Wanda is insane for creating babies with magic and crazy for being with a synthetic man, because that doesn't work in the real world sort of thing. And that whole edginess started even before the 2000s. It started in the late 80s. Comics were starting to not be allowed to be fluff anymore, because that wasn't cool.

[Albert1981]

It's not an answer, it wasn't a question. It was a discussion. That I was having with someone else. No I don't like Mephisto or HoM. And I'm not gonna come any closer to liking the times that Wanda and Vision were trashed as characters by Byrne and Bendis because you disagree.

The boys can be done easily without all that mess and should be. Because Mephisto soul babies transplanted into already born teens is probably too messy for the movies anyway.

While infamous, HoM was never important to Wanda's character development. It's actually gone in reverse since then.

And Mephisto was never a central villain for her. And did makes everyone's lives and families a mess. Wanda and Vision's family, Pete and MJ, Stephen and Clea. It's not just a flippant joke, it's stuff Marvel actually did. They made Mephisto a joke.

Now they could do the same in the movie-verse. And I have the right to hate that then as much as I do now, in this very thread.

Marvel doesn't know how to tell stories regarding divorce in a realistic and mature way. So they use folks like Mephisto to do their dirty work.

[GenericUsername]

Marvel doesn't know how to tell stories regarding divorce in a realistic and mature way. So they use folks like Mephisto to do their dirty work.

Or relationships really. Because relationships can have conflict without it being, well the government tore me apart and I have no memory of you. I get needing drama and needing things to not always be nice and good. Bad things happen. But the way they do go about it conflicts with their edgy, realistic approach. Because their relationships are told as if they were never really in one.

[Albert1981]

I probably would have felt the kids were a dangerous idea if the books weren't so settled into sci-fi and magic already. But it was pretty common place to have kids in weird ways. And in the story itself, was sold as being completely normal and ok. By Doctor Strange himself.

I think comics just switched from wanting those fantasy elements to wanting everything rooted in reality and being edgy. So stuff like that had to go and had to be painted then as abnormal. Wanda is insane for creating babies with magic and crazy for being with a synthetic man, because that doesn't work in the real world sort of thing. And that whole edginess started even before the 2000s. It started in the late 80s. Comics were starting to not be allowed to be fluff anymore, because that wasn't cool.

Yeah, I got into comics in the early 90s when the whole grimdark era began. I think the first comics I ever bought was the Torment storyline in Spider-Man, which had some cool art but now looking back on it the story was pretty dark and not much actually happened. The Lizard was not the nuanced villain he had been before. Just a mindless beast. But I really liked the Englehart era of Wanda and Vision because it was just wholesome, campy fun (Except for Pietro and Crystal. They were dysfunctional as hell). The way comics should be. But I thought it was funny that Doctor Strange was not only a neurosurgeon, but could deliver babies too! I don't mind the live-action stuff being grounded in reality because you can get away with stuff in comics that you can't on screen (and I'm talking about reincarnated babies). Things can be weird, but I think they have to be somewhat plausible in the films/shows. That's why Marvel Studios hired scientific consultants to help with their bullshit science fiction in the movies thus far. I really hope Mephisto is not the twins' baby daddy. That would be sick. I don't think Marvel Studios will go that route, but I have my concerns. I prefer the humorous approach of telling stories that the MCU has adopted, although I know you're getting weary of it.

[GenericUsername]

Yeah, I got into comics in the early 90s when the whole grimdark era began. I think the first comics I ever bought was the Torment storyline in Spider-Man, which had some cool art but now looking back on it the story was pretty dark and not much actually happened. The Lizard was not the nuanced villain he had been before. Just a mindless beast. But I really liked the Englehart era of Wanda and Vision because it was just wholesome, campy fun (Except for Pietro and Crystal. They were dysfunctional as hell). The way comics should be. But I thought it was funny that Doctor Strange was not only a neurosurgeon, but could deliver babies too! I don't mind the live-action stuff being grounded in reality because you can get away with stuff in comics that you can't on screen (and I'm talking about reincarnated babies). Things can be weird, but I think they have to be somewhat plausible in the films/shows. That's why Marvel Studios hired scientific consultants to help with their bullshit science fiction in the movies thus far. I really hope Mephisto is not the twins' baby daddy. That would be sick. I don't think Marvel Studios will go that route, but I have my concerns. I prefer the humorous approach of telling stories that the MCU has adopted, although I know you're getting weary of it.

Comics do seem to think that if one is a doctor of a certain science, they are in all of them. Not sure if that is based in ignorance or convenience.

And movies are a different thing. I'm mainly referencing the changed from the bronze age to the modern era of comics. And even movies have not been as grim dark as comics got. Maybe it will down the line. But for now, it's been pretty fun.

[Albert1981]

Or relationships really. Because relationships can have conflict without it being, well the government tore me apart and I have no memory of you. I get needing drama and needing things to not always be nice and good. Bad things happen. But the way they do go about it conflicts with their edgy, realistic approach. Because their relationships are told as if they were never really in one.

I just get the feeling that for comic book creators (editors, artists, and writers) marriage is like the end of the road for storytelling. Married couples live happily ever and things get stale. It's like once folks get hitched, no problems and conflicts ever arise again according to them. So it's time to bring in some drama and dysfunction. I don't know if that's because comic book creators' personal lives are a mess or not. But I don't think that reflects the real world. Lots of married couples fight and have drama, but still try to make things work. That's realistic. But I guess being married in the comics for sixty years (our time) IS a long time. The happily ever after stuff works better in shows and movies because relationships don't last as long there.

[Albert1981]

Comics do seem to think that if one is a doctor of a certain science, they are in all of them. Not sure if that is based in ignorance or convenience.

And movies are a different thing. I'm mainly referencing the changed from the bronze age to the modern era of comics. And even movies have not been as grim dark as comics got. Maybe it will down the line. But for now, it's been pretty fun.

I think CBMs thus far have been either really campy or slightly edgelordy thus far. But even slightly does not work for me. I'm just not interested in seeing Joker doing crazy **** and being traumatized in the movies. I don't like Batman pulling out guns and flat out mowing down people. I hate seeing Superman plow through Metropolis without any regard for civilian life. I think DC was definitely heading in a grimdark direction with their more "heroic" characters and audiences failed to respond positively to them. Even people who aren't familiar with superhero comic books know that having Daredevil leave a rapist on the railroad tracks to get split in half is really wrong (I get that he was a bad guy, but I think that was so unnecessary). So far the MCU has avoided that and I think that is largely because of the PG-13 Disney world that they live in. And I prefer that world VERY much. I understand the storytelling in the MCU hasn't been THAT particularly ambitious, but it's been entertaining. I do think WandaVision could be a bit different though. At least I hope so. Bettany and Olsen seem really excited and proud of the show, kind of like how Hemsworth was of Ragnarok. So I'm cautiously optimistic things Vision and Wanda in live-action will not end up like their comic book counterparts.

[GenericUsername]

I just get the feeling that for comic book creators (editors, artists, and writers) marriage is like the end of the road for storytelling. Married couples live happily ever and things get stale. It's like once folks get hitched, no problems and conflicts ever arise again according to them. So it's time to bring in some drama and dysfunction. I don't know if that's because comic book creators' personal lives are a mess or not. But I don't think that reflects the real world. Lots of married couples fight and have drama, but still try to make things work. That's realistic. But I guess being married in the comics for sixty years (our time) IS a long time. The happily ever after stuff works better in shows and movies because relationships don't last as long there.

Some drama is ok, and realistic. Their approach is more akin to soap operas though.

[Albert1981]

Some drama is ok, and realistic. Their approach is more akin to soap operas though.

I don't mind some drama because that can be realistically done. But comic book dramas are like really violent soap operas.

[MaximoffTrash]

LOL It's not like Wanda wasn't gonna have a thread here if you hadn't made it. You were just the first to rush to be OP(which afaik actually means nothing). Not even like there was a whole intro like when CJ made it.



Answer, reply... I was kinda using it interchangeably without thinking about it, cause in my first language we use the same word for both.

I know they can be done in different ways. I didn't even come up with the idea that Mephisto had to be in the show, I just reacted positively to the rumor that he is lol. I know you want Chthon, which is indeed a central villain for her. I just feel like there hasn't been any indication that he's gonna be used unfortunately. The other rumor/theory going around is that it's Nightmare. And then there being no villain and it's just Wanda messing with reality and having to be stopped. I just prefer Mephisto over those.



Ok. I don't hate Byrne's stuff in itself, even though I know it was damaging. I'm not thinking anything negatively of you hating these stories. Just how you come up about it and other Wanda-related discussion sometimes.

I don't hate Byrne's stuff that much, but mainly because Roy Thomas and later Busiek kinda swooped in to do some damage control. But he kinda opened the pandora's box for whatever Bendis want to do with Avengers. And sadly no one came to rescue this time once Bendis was done.
If anything, I would probably prefer the seed of destrution was never there in the first place.

About Nightmare and Mephisto though, honestly I would prefer Nightmare, at least he mattered to Stephen more, and they can probably introduce Shuma-Gorath in a row as well.
Also WandaVision is like the most secret project among the D+ Marvel shows(I mean, just look at Hawkeye!) I don't really think those rumors were based upon actual evidence, more likely they just based on what they do know about related projects and assumptions based on "the most famous comic storylines".

[Albert1981]

I am just describing some fan behavior, they don't Magneto to be actually in MCU to make fanarts and stuff about the subject. AKA depicting Magneto as the none-existent wholesome dad who protect his daughter from some mean witch.

Okay, gotcha!

[Albert1981]

I don't hate Byrne's stuff that much, but mainly because Roy Thomas and later Busiek kinda swooped in to do some damage control. But he kinda opened the pandora's box for whatever Bendis want to do with Avengers. And sadly no one came to rescue this time once Bendis was done.
If anything, I would probably prefer the seed of destrution was never there in the first place.

About Nightmare and Mephisto though, honestly I would prefer Nightmare, at least he mattered to Stephen more, and they can probably introduce Shuma-Gorath in a row as well.
Also WandaVision is like the most secret project among the D+ Marvel shows(I mean, just look at Hawkeye!) I don't really think those rumors were based upon actual evidence, more likely they just based on what they do know about related projects and assumptions based on "the most famous comic storylines".

We'll just have to see. Trying to find out secrets from this particular show is like trying to successfully break into Fort Knox. I hope the One More Day thing doesn't happen like in the comic books. The one thing I like about the MCU is that the superheroes DON'T have secret identities. I think that concept is outdated and obsolete in the 2020s. I'm usually not a HUGE Spidey fan due to my dislike of his previous Sony movies, but I am curious to see Daredevil on the big screen again. I've always liked him. But I don't think Wanda's ever had much interaction with Murdock. The only "street level" hero she seems to know well is She-Hulk I think.

[MaximoffTrash]

I don't think the whole WCA, white Vision and twins being taken away was a damaging story for Wanda as much as just for Wanda/Vision as a ship, and I didn't think it was really that controversial to bring it up here. I never felt like she was really "thrashed" by any major story besides Disassembled/HOM(well, Remender's UA pissed me off at times but...), though it's not like I've read everything.

My comment about the thread thing is that it felt to me like you were trying to imply some authority over it, which I'd understand a bit if it was a specific discussion started or an elaborated thing but not when just opening a Wanda Appreciation Thread so that we have a place to talk.

Honestly Wanda is not a character that every fan is gonna agree on most things. Some people love Wanda and Vision as a couple and some find it abusive. Some want her to be a mutant some not, a lot want her to be Magneto's daughter, some just the Maximoffs, some Natalya and some other character. Some really want her to interact with character [X] that others think there's no need to. Some think her MCU adaptation is an abomination that shouldn't even be brought up along with the original one and here we are just talking about stuff related to her for pages and pages...

IMO, her history with Vision, be it "abusive" or not, is still a large chunk of her character development and history.
While the whole deal of her parents, are just one messy retcon after another, even the most persisting iteration(the Magneto one) never really have a full arc of them as a family, they just bounce back and forth.(And it ultimately resulted in the disastrous HoM, or at least being part of the reason.) While the Maximoff did have that with the whole Django trapping the twins in dolls, and later Nights of Wundagore story, yes it's your generic desperate dad sacrificing himself ****, but it's way more complete than anyone else.

People who are ScarletVision shippers would at least somewhat base the understanding of her character on Avengers run, with her as at least one of the main focus.
Not so much for Magnus family fans really, it's probably a gross generalization, but for the lack of material Wanda has on X-side, and the pretty much none-existence of Magnus family content on Avengers side, I doubt Wanda is treated like her actual character with those fans.(Can we at least acknowledge that Wanda fans from Avengers side have a more solid claim when it comes to discussion about the character?)

While I don't like some comic purists' disgard for pragmatism, I will respect them as long as they remain somewhat consistent.
Meaning hating certain "unfaithful" comic storylines as much as they hate MCU Wanda, but again I have seen multiple times that MCU Wanda haters end up being Magnus family fans, HoM lover(yeah, those types love to make the power comparison and use this as the reason why MCU Wanda sucks and stuff), and of course the types imagining none-existent traits for Wanda as a character.(Implied culturally or religiously Jewish, lesbian, bisexual, you fucking name it. It almost comes down to "I hate her because my fanfiction accuracy")
The prime counter example would Scarlet Witching from Tumblr, really some deep **** from her perspective.

[Albert1981]

I really like how the show has remixed "Daydream Believer" for this trailer (I'm quite pleased with the music I'm hearing from this series thus far):

https://geektyrant.com/news/new-tv-s...es-wandavision

[leokearon]

I just get the feeling that for comic book creators (editors, artists, and writers) marriage is like the end of the road for storytelling. Married couples live happily ever and things get stale. It's like once folks get hitched, no problems and conflicts ever arise again according to them. So it's time to bring in some drama and dysfunction. I don't know if that's because comic book creators' personal lives are a mess or not. But I don't think that reflects the real world. Lots of married couples fight and have drama, but still try to make things work. That's realistic. But I guess being married in the comics for sixty years (our time) IS a long time. The happily ever after stuff works better in shows and movies because relationships don't last as long there.

For many comic staff, Marriage is a no-no they believe it "ages" the characters, however for many people it is the natural progression of any relationship. The problem also comes that many comic staff seem to have a very Christian view of the world and therefore divorce is also a no-no. So if they want to get rid of a marriage, the have to use ridiculous things like reality warps and reboots.